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More than 1 school shooting per week in the land of the free

Farted by Thor, January 22, 2013, 02:40:54 PM

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AlbinoClock

Quote from: Slurpee;1937677Is that really how I post when I've lost emotional control? Jesus Christ I'm fucking glorious.

Well it's just that you started insulting me rather than continuing the discussion so I'm assuming you weren't exactly relaxed.

Slurpee

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937710Well it's just that you started insulting me rather than continuing the discussion so I'm assuming you weren't exactly relaxed.

What discussion? You and I hadn't said a single word to eachother before your weirdly sarcastic interjection.

Marlin Clock

So am I the only one that finds it kinda funny that after all these years it's me who has the liberal viewpoint arguing against albino and absinthe's conservative one?
Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937630Automatic rifles are good for shooting at pests, and both are good for close-quarters self-defense. You just need to be a responsible gun owner. You keep the shit locked up.

What pests do you live with? Also, how is an assault rifle better for close quarters than a shotgun?

I'll admit handguns are better for close quarters, but that's my point. They only exist to effectively kill people. If you have a shotgun usually you're going to start wielding it before someone gets inside the range where it becomes difficult to fire it.

AbsintheClock

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937720What pests do you live with? Also, how is an assault rifle better for close quarters than a shotgun?



Also my view is that assault rifles should be harder to get, but not banned.

Also the "stuffing pandora back into it's box" doesn't apply to other countries because other countries don't have any constitutional rights to bear arms. Thus to them guns are not a right (and to some a god-given right) but a privilege. That's where the big problem lies, and there's no real way to undermine that without making a really big problem.

Thor

It's funny how often you'll read about people using guns in self defense... and missing every shot. People need to learn to calm the fuck down and aim before shooting. That scene in Pulp Fiction is actually surprisingly accurate.

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937648Moving this thread to our other gas chamber.

I just made this thread to make fun of America and be edgy, I didn't expect it into a full-on political shitstorm.

Oh well, this is kind of fun too.
Quote from: MafiaMettaurWhat the hell is with that shit you posted? You know what, I'm joining the Locks, just to stop stuff like you!
Quote from: polyhedronclockYou're a fucking clock, what else do you have?
To be fair, you don't have anything. Clocks are just machines that tick.

Marlin Clock

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937721
I'd like to note a high velocity pellet gun would do you just fine in that situation.
Or a trap. I actually have been pretty successful at live trapping the mice that get into my home.

QuoteAlso my view is that assault rifles should be harder to get, but not banned.
I suppose I wouldn't be against that. Like I said I don't like guns at all, but I don't think we need to get rid of guns if there's a way to minimize risk otherwise. There are certain guns that need to be limited at the very least.

QuoteAlso the "stuffing pandora back into it's box" doesn't apply to other countries because other countries don't have any constitutional rights to bear arms. Thus to them guns are not a right (and to some a god-given right) but a privilege. That's where the big problem lies, and there's no real way to undermine that without making a really big problem.
I know this doesn't apply to everyone, especially not you two, but I've never understood the idea of a christian owning firearms for the intent of self defense. Have you ever heard anyone reconcile those two dissonant philosophies?

AlbinoClock

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937720So am I the only one that finds it kinda funny that after all these years it's me who has the liberal viewpoint arguing against albino and absinthe's conservative one?

 
What pests do you live with? Also, how is an assault rifle better for close quarters than a shotgun?

I'll admit handguns are better for close quarters, but that's my point. They only exist to effectively kill people. If you have a shotgun usually you're going to start wielding it before someone gets inside the range where it becomes difficult to fire it.

Construing this as a liberal/conservative issue isn't really accurate. There's nothing inherently conservative about being pro-gun or liberal about being anti-gun. It may be that there are more conservative gun advocates than liberal ones but that's just because of the correlation between political parties and rural vs urban settings. Higher population density tends to mean more liberal, but it also tends to mean that there's less open space to shoot at things in. People who aren't familiar with guns tend to be afraid of them and often think they're far more dangerous and sinister than they really are.  
 
Shotguns are less than ideal for self-defense because you have to reload them. They're better for shooting at small game that are harder to hit with a slug. And yes, pistols are great for shooting something that's close to you, whether that be a human intruder, an angry bear, or a rabid dog. They're most certainly not only for killing people though, they're also good for shooting animals, shooting targets, and intimidating would-be attackers and thieves.
 
It seems that you're focused on killing, though, so I'll address that. What's wrong with killing someone who's attacking you?

Thor

I always assumed people used shotguns with birdshot for home defense because you don't have to aim it so much.

Seems pretty stupid to me, though. One shot (depending on the model) and if you miss you're screwed. Besides that, the cone on birdshot is actually surprisingly narrow in close quarters. It might as well just be a slug at close range. I wonder why shotguns are so popular. Maybe because people think "it's bigger, so it must be more good at killin stuff" or something.


Personally, I would opt for a high caliber automatic pistol with a large magazine for home defense.


EDIT:

Here's a thought; why don't we have any special laws about people with children buying guns? I don't think a parent should have guns unless they can prove that they understand how INCREDIBLY COMMON it is for children to shoot themselves. It happens constantly and it's disgusting that so many parents allow it to happen.
Quote from: MafiaMettaurWhat the hell is with that shit you posted? You know what, I'm joining the Locks, just to stop stuff like you!
Quote from: polyhedronclockYou're a fucking clock, what else do you have?
To be fair, you don't have anything. Clocks are just machines that tick.

Marlin Clock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937730Construing this as a liberal/conservative issue isn't really accurate. There's nothing inherently conservative about being pro-gun or liberal about being anti-gun. It may be that there are more conservative gun advocates than liberal ones but that's just because of the correlation between political parties and rural vs urban settings. Higher population density tends to mean more liberal, but it also tends to mean that there's less open space to shoot at things in. People who aren't familiar with guns tend to be afraid of them and often think they're far more dangerous and sinister than they really are.  
 
Shotguns are less than ideal for self-defense because you have to reload them. They're better for shooting at small game that are harder to hit with a slug. And yes, pistols are great for shooting something that's close to you, whether that be a human intruder, an angry bear, or a rabid dog. They're most certainly not only for killing people though, they're also good for shooting animals, shooting targets, and intimidating would-be attackers and thieves.
 
It seems that you're focused on killing, though, so I'll address that. What's wrong with killing someone who's attacking you?
Personally? It just goes against my christian principles to harm anyone, for any reason.
Quote from: Thor;1937731I always assumed people used shotguns with birdshot for home defense because you don't have to aim it so much.

Seems pretty stupid to me, though. One shot (depending on the model) and if you miss you're screwed. Besides that, the cone on birdshot is actually surprisingly narrow in close quarters. It might as well just be a slug at close range. I wonder why shotguns are so popular. Maybe because people think "it's bigger, so it must be more good at killin stuff" or something.


Personally, I would opt for a high caliber automatic pistol with a large magazine for home defense.

I'd say a shotgun is way more intimidating. There are plenty of shotgun models that store multiple shells. Plus, the pellets only go so far. I've heard far too often the stories in Chicago of handgun bullets from gang fights or something similar striking someone in a home totally unrelated to the crime and killing them because of the distance a handgun bullet can travel and still be lethal.

QuoteHere's a thought; why don't we have any special laws about people with children buying guns? I don't think a parent should have guns unless they can prove that they understand how INCREDIBLY COMMON it is for children to shoot themselves. It happens constantly and it's disgusting that so many parents allow it to happen.
Also a valid argument.

Marlin Clock

Quote from: Thor;1937731I always assumed people used shotguns with birdshot for home defense because you don't have to aim it so much.

Seems pretty stupid to me, though. One shot (depending on the model) and if you miss you're screwed. Besides that, the cone on birdshot is actually surprisingly narrow in close quarters. It might as well just be a slug at close range. I wonder why shotguns are so popular. Maybe because people think "it's bigger, so it must be more good at killin stuff" or something.


Personally, I would opt for a high caliber automatic pistol with a large magazine for home defense.

I'd say a shotgun is way more intimidating. There are plenty of shotgun models that store multiple shells. Plus, that means the pellets only go so far. I've heard far too often the stories in Chicago of handgun bullets from gang fights or something similar striking someone in a home totally unrelated to the crime and killing them.

QuoteHere's a thought; why don't we have any special laws about people with children buying guns? I don't think a parent should have guns unless they can prove that they understand how INCREDIBLY COMMON it is for children to shoot themselves. It happens constantly and it's disgusting that so many parents allow it to happen.
Also a valid argument.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937735Personally? It just goes against my christian principles to harm anyone, for any reason.

Well that's lovely for you and other Christians if you don't want to defend yourselves, but that's got nothing to do with anyone else.

AbsintheClock

Quote from: Thor;1937731Here's a thought; why don't we have any special laws about people with children buying guns? I don't think a parent should have guns unless they can prove that they understand how INCREDIBLY COMMON it is for children to shoot themselves. It happens constantly and it's disgusting that so many parents allow it to happen.

I agree with this. I also think that people who let their children get killed through negligence should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Quote from: MarlinI've never understood the idea of a christian owning firearms for the intent of self defense.

Quote from: AmmoLandWashington DC - -(Ammoland.com)- Last week, in pointing out the problems with Jill Leporeââ,¬â,,¢s attempt to undermine the Second Amendment and justify more gun control, I focused on the fact that our right to keep and bear arms is a God-given right.

As such, it preceded not only the Second Amendment but also the founding of the United States.

In other words: We donââ,¬â,,¢t have the right to keep and bear arms because the Bill of Rights says so; rather, the Bill of Rights says so because the right to keep and bear arms is intrinsic to our very being: it is a right with which we were endowed by our Creator.
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I also put a link to the full article. These aren't my views, but this is how a lot of people feel.

Thor

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937735I'd say a shotgun is way more intimidating. There are plenty of shotgun models that store multiple shells. Plus, the pellets only go so far. I've heard far too often the stories in Chicago of handgun bullets from gang fights or something similar striking someone in a home totally unrelated to the crime and killing them because of the distance a handgun bullet can travel and still be lethal.

I can understand the intimidation factor if you just want to scare somebody off, but for actually using it a pistol is just better in every way.

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937729I know this doesn't apply to everyone, especially not you two, but I've never understood the idea of a christian owning firearms for the intent of self defense. Have you ever heard anyone reconcile those two dissonant philosophies?

Oh man, you brought up religion. You opened up the debate forum pandoras box.

Anyway, as far as Christianity goes, there are plenty of places in the bible, both the old and new testament, that specifically condone killing various sinners. Need I remind you that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"? The vast majority of condoned killing is in the old testement (most of the threats of death in the new testament are going to be fulfilled by Jesus himself). If you're Catholic, then all of the books that tell you to kill people in the old testament are still canon. For more modern christians, you can just assume all criminals are gay and kill them ala Romans 1:31-32
Quote from: MafiaMettaurWhat the hell is with that shit you posted? You know what, I'm joining the Locks, just to stop stuff like you!
Quote from: polyhedronclockYou're a fucking clock, what else do you have?
To be fair, you don't have anything. Clocks are just machines that tick.

Marlin Clock

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937742I agree with this. I also think that people who let their children get killed through negligence should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.





I also put a link to the full article. These aren't my views, but this is how a lot of people feel.
I don't understand how someone can believe there are god-given rights to things that didn't even exist when Jesus was alive. Do they even know the words "love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you"?
Quote from: Thor;1937769I can understand the intimidation factor if you just want to scare somebody off, but for actually using it a pistol is just better in every way.


 
Oh man, you brought up religion. You opened up the debate forum pandoras box.

Anyway, as far as Christianity goes, there are plenty of places in the bible, both the old and new testament, that specifically condone killing various sinners. Need I remind you that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"? The vast majority of condoned killing is in the old testement (most of the threats of death in the new testament are going to be fulfilled by Jesus himself). If you're Catholic, then all of the books that tell you to kill people in the old testament are still canon. For more modern christians, you can just assume all criminals are gay and kill them ala Romans 1:31-32
Last time I checked the only Old Testament teachings that need to be followed are the Ten Commandments, since those are the only teachings specifically handed down by God. There is also clear teaching from Jesus saying that violence and revenge are wrong.
All I see in that Romans chapter is that talks about how all sins are deserving of their punishment, but it may depend on the translation. You could also say he is implying the greater death of the soul via damnation, instead of the life everlasting given by being received into the kingdom.

Going further into this would be its own thread, though.


AlbinoClock

As far as the children thing goes, that's why it's so important to keep your guns locked up. It's also why it's important to teach gun safety early. By the time your kid is old enough to figure out how to steal your key and get into your cabinet they should be well-versed in gun safety.

Thor

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937791Last time I checked the only Old Testament teachings that need to be followed are the Ten Commandments, since those are the only teachings specifically handed down by God. There is also clear teaching from Jesus saying that violence and revenge are wrong.

I said if you're a CATHOLIC. The Catholic Church is extremely specific about which books are true and which books are no longer valid covenants with God. They can be pretty sure about their choices, too, since the Pope can speak directly with God himself to decide which books are true.

If you're a Mormon, then you have tons of reasons to kill people. Hell, in the Book of Mormon Jesus himself advocated a war with swords and stuff.

For a more sane Christian who doesn't believe in "living prophets", there really isn't any good reason to kill anybody, ever, for any reason unless you REALLY stretch your interpretation. However, keep in mind that many denominational Christian churches still read and believe both the Old and New testament, and for those people they have every right, religiously, to shoot gays, disobedient children and slaves, thieves, and adulterers. Your personal understanding of the bible is not the only one, nor is it even the most common. I think most "christians" in America don't even know that the Old Testament is no longer valid (especially with how often Christian republicans will quote that anti-gay passage)
Quote from: MafiaMettaurWhat the hell is with that shit you posted? You know what, I'm joining the Locks, just to stop stuff like you!
Quote from: polyhedronclockYou're a fucking clock, what else do you have?
To be fair, you don't have anything. Clocks are just machines that tick.