Gaza Strip

[Thor]

I'm not saying we should force Israel to give the land back, I just think we should stop giving them aid, and that it was wrong of America to help them steal the land in the first place.

[AstronautClock]

religion should be banned amirite guys

[buttplug]

america supported an already existing nation defend itself from invaders.

most of that nation existed in a diaspora for 2000 years.

Look, proposing that Israelis now need to vacate their country is absurd. They most definitely have a legal basis for existing. But the way Palestinians are treated is unacceptable.

They do NOT have a claim because of their holy sites, or because they lived there long ago.

Also it's hilarious that you treat a reconstructed map of the western Mediterranean as an accurate depiction of political borders, since political borders did not exist back then.

[F U Clock]

Also, MAN, why is the middle east so fucked. All i read about in history is about how prosperous and beautiful and how many advanced ideas and civlizations sprung from the middle east, and now all I read about is how it's a shit pile. Baghdad was like the center of the world, and it's still there! Who fucking raped the middle east?

PREPARE FOR INSENSITIVE AND POSSIBLY IGNORANT ANSWER:

Islam happened.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson has talked about this a lot, how the middle east was like the center of scientific advancement in the world, and then it became fundamentally religious almost across the board and they have just remained stuck in time.

It also doesn't help that people keep fucking with the middle east, but what can you do, they have oil and we refuse to buy electric cars.

[buttplug]

Neil DeGrasse Tyson has talked about this a lot, how the middle east was like the center of scientific advancement in the world, and then it became fundamentally religious almost across the board and they have just remained stuck in time.

That wouldn't be because of Islam, it would be because if fundamentalism. Also there is no sole reason for a question as complex as the one AMPM posed. Unfortunately I don't know much about this, all I can say is that many cultures have flourished under Islam. Take a look at Al-Andalus

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

They did fine under Islam for a long time, much better than Europe did under Christianity in terms of scientific advancement.

[buttplug]

They did fine under Islam for a long time, much better than Europe did under Christianity in terms of scientific advancement.

Ehhh I'd be reluctant to compare any religions this way, since religions change so much over time. Comparing religions in this way is not very helpful historically, and it tends to just cause conflict.

If you select a specific time and place, you can judge the causes and effects of different religions. For example, I am taking a course in Christianity in east Asia this semester, and it is helpful to look at and compare Christianity with Confucianism and Buddhism.

[Marlin Clock]

Yeah I'd say it was more political climates than religious. It seemed like Islamic nations were far less factionalist at first outside the sunni-shiia divide, whereas feudal kingdoms in europe were pockmarked with infighting at all levels of government.

[Thor]

The middle east, particularly around the Mediterranean sea, have had problems with being repeatedly conquered and being in a constant state of war. First the Romans, then Macedonia, then Britian, and now America. And all the while they squabble amongst each other. A situation like that doesn't make for a stable region.

That wouldn't be because of Islam, it would be because if fundamentalism. Also there is no sole reason for a question as complex as the one AMPM posed. Unfortunately I don't know much about this, all I can say is that many cultures have flourished under Islam. Take a look at Al-Andalus

If Islam isn't bad for countries, why isn't there a single Islam-majority country on the top 50 countries by GDP or in the top 50 countries by Human Development Index? Keep in mind that Israel is ranked 17 by HDI. So does living in a shit country make you Islamic, or does being Islamic make your country shit?

[AMPEEEM]

what the fuck is a sikhism now

[AMPEEEM]

is this a valid point clock crew: the sikhists could be to blame for the decline of the middle east as much as islamists

[BinaryClock]

It seems like there should be a statute of limitations on being able to "legally" claim land, maybe 1000 years? Legally doesn't even have a meaning in the international context other than "what you can get away with".

I guess I don't see why Palestinians are meant to suffer under an state where Jews literally have more rights than non-Jews, and even if you are Jewish but happen to also be Arab, you suffer similar consequences. I am Jewish and it disgusts me the rampant apologism that goes on for a modern day apartheid state, founded on the idea that "Jews deserve a homeland" as if Palestinians don't deserve the same. South African apartheid only ended due to global pressure and isolation, but it's clear that as long as Israel is touted as "the only democracy in the Middle East"  because it's convenient for the United States and Europe, Palestinians will continue to struggle to exist in ghettos, have their homes turned to rubble courtesy of Israeli bulldozers, or have their lives destroyed by Israeli settlers or the "Israeli Defense Force".

[Thor]

what the fuck is a sikhism now

It's a religion about having cool beards and colorful cloth hats

[BinaryClock]

The middle east, particularly around the Mediterranean sea, have had problems with being repeatedly conquered and being in a constant state of war. First the Romans, then Macedonia, then Britian, and now America. And all the while they squabble amongst each other. A situation like that doesn't make for a stable region.


 
If Islam isn't bad for countries, why isn't there a single Islam-majority country on the top 50 countries by GDP or in the top 50 countries by Human Development Index? Keep in mind that Israel is ranked 17 by HDI. So does living in a shit country make you Islamic, or does being Islamic make your country shit?

Thor, not only is that racist, but it's also completely wrong. Turkey, Indonesia, Iran, the UAE, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Algeria, Kazakhstan, Bangladesh, Malaysia: all have nominal GDPs in the top 50, most of them higher than Israel. Additionally Qatar is among the highest GDP per capita worldwide, not to mention that the UAE, Brunei, and Kuwait are higher on that list than Israel and that Bahrain, Oman, and Saudi Arabia are also in the top 50.

And not only that the UAE, Brunei, Bahrain, and Qatar are also ranked "very high" on the HDI, that you consider a state that blockades a population of 1.7 million from receiving goods such as:

cement, glass, steel, bitumen, wood, paint, doors, plastic pipes, metal pipes, metal reinforcement rods, aggregate, generators, high voltage cables and wooden telegraph poles, books, candles, crayons, clothing, cups, cutlery, crockery, electric appliances such as refrigerators and washing machines, glasses, light bulbs, matches, musical instruments, needles, sheets, blankets, shoes, mattresses, spare machine and car parts, and threads, fishing ropes and rods, ginger and chocolate, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice, hearing aid batteries, and wheelchairs

as an example of a shining beacon for human rightsââ,¬Â¦ I just don't know.

[BinaryClock]

Honestly Thor, I demand an outright apology. That was racist as fuck.

[buttplug]

The concept of the ethnic nation is a modern invention. Jews do not have a claim to Israel because of history.

When Titus destroyed the second temple, Judaism had to fundamentally change. Over time it became a religion of the book, not of the temple. This allowed Jews to keep their heritage intact within the diaspora.

Just because they kept their culture intact does not create a legal basis for them to go back to the land that their ancestors lived. In the intervening years, many different people settled the area.

Whatever the reasons given for allowing Jews to settle in the state of Israel, its legitimacy goes not stem from history. It comes from the fact that the state was created by the western community.


Also, to Thor, Binary covered it better than I cold have.

[Thor]

It's not racist if it's against a religion. A religion isn't a race. I can hate the religion of Islam all I want and not be a racist.


The information I quoted about the GDP and HDI is clearly wrong though, sorry. I didn't notice all the tiny countries like Qatar. By area, though, middle eastern countries have a predominantly low HDI. The successful countries are all either small or Saudi Arabia. They're still a lot better off than Africa or South America, though.

edit; So yeah I'm dropping the hypothesis that the problems with the middle east are due entirely to their religion.

[pop-tart]

People's spiritual beliefs are directly related to the natural resources and goods produced in the country they reside. Vote Thor for admin.

[Thor]

People's spiritual beliefs are directly related to the natural resources and goods produced in the country they reside. Vote Thor for admin.

Are you trying to imply that the middle east is shit because it doesn't have enough valuable natural resources?

Seriously?

[pop-tart]

No, I didn't say that.