Clock Crew

Okay, so that's a generalization and not necessarily what the article says. But the hypocrisy of some of these stories is so mind-boggling that I guess it just goes to show how un-self aware many people are.

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html?

The Article is called "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" and it basically reports that many anti-abortionists around the world who are faced with un-wanted pregnancies get abortions, rationalizing in their own minds that they are the one exception to the rule. In addition, many of these women return right back to picketing and calling abortionists 'murderers' after the service has been offered to them. The article words it much better than I do. Some interesting excerpts if you don't feel like reading the whole thing:

QuoteI've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it.

QuoteWe too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks.

QuoteThe sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said.

QuoteWe have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does.

It isn't all bad, however, as two nice quotes at the end of people who had changed their beliefs after they had abortions shows. It also mentions how some counselors try to help them understand that their reasons for getting an abortion are no different than everyone else's.

It totally grinds my gears though that these people can be so selfish, trying to deny other women the right to terminate a pregnancy. And what happens when they are faced with the same situation? Apparently, a sense of entitlement and self-righteousness takes over which allows them to receive the exact same service they want to deny others, and then give no thanks at all for it. They even go as far as to claim that the doctors are at fault for them not following normal procedures.

Not much to say except that it's total bullshit.

Quote from: Bill Nye;1330584Not much to say except that it's total bullshit.

I'd "." that if my "." button worked.

Quote from: UnrealClock;1330585I'd "." that if my "." button worked.

Doesn't it?

i don't need an article to know they're hypocrits

Quote from: Bill Nye;1330587Doesn't it?

Shut up It only works for me. Fuck you. Ok.

What I don't understand about people who are anti-abortion (I refuse to use the term pro-life because, seriously, who's anti-life?) is simply this: Do they know that there was a time when abortion was illegal and that people still got them in unsanitary, shit-hole environments? Why do they think it was legalized? Why do they think that it would actually be better for society if abortions were illegal?

Quote from: Predator;1330600What I don't understand about people who are anti-abortion (I refuse to use the term pro-life because, seriously, who's anti-life?) is simply this: Do they know that there was a time when abortion was illegal and that people still got them in unsanitary, shit-hole environments? Why do they think it was legalized? Why do they think that it would actually be better for society if abortions were illegal?

To be fair though, just because it's practiced today doesn't make it a valid reason to keep it. The idea behind prohibiting abortions is telling people "Hey, you have a responsibility to take care of this child. You can't just say 'I want out.' and kill it because you can't handle it." Though I see their point, if they truly believe that, then they shouldn't be the ones practicing it.

I'm pro-life and I've had five abortions.

The only thing that I don't like about abortion is it could potentially prevent the birth of somebody important. I guess that 's only an issue with me because my mom was in a pretty bad situation when she was pregnant and she had to consider an abortion. If she had decided to, I wouldn't have been born. She didn't want to to begin with, though, from what she told me. I was planned, and she was only forcing herself to think about it. Then again, she could have told me that just so that I wouldn't feel guilty about my own existence. I don't know. Anyway, I don't think it's murder or anything, but I don't completely like it because it could have prevented me from ever existing. On the other hand, I understand how bad the situation of an unwanted pregnancy is. I'm pretty much undecided on the subject of abortions, because each side has one very valid argument that I know of.

lmao

land of the free

hypocrit you say? (http://www.clockcrew.cc/talk/showthread.php?t=75416)

Quote from: RoboDeath Clock;1330729hypocrit you say?

DURRR

Stop being anti-life you baby murdering freaks!

I think they rationalize it this way:  Pro-lifers see fetuses as children, and pro-choicers don't.  So the pro-lifer can think "It's O.K. because at least I can say he was a person"  Which is I'm a edgy teen.

I'm pro-choice and I totally do believe that a fetus could be a human being-- and that's exactly why I think abortion is O.K.  Children deserve to be wanted and loved, not resented or ignored.

I have to side with anti-abortionists... honestly.

I haven't been fed any kind of anti-abortion propaganda in my life... I've been left to make my own decisions...

But I have found things, that would make your blood boil... Apparently on each side of my family there was a very vocal anti-abortion advocate... Both of these chaps even wrote books... Both in different continents. And while snooping around as a kid I found boxes of research material that had been tossed aside on both sides of the Atlantic...

THOUSANDS of very disturbing images with testimonials first-hand accounts, details of instrumentation, amazing stuff really.  Polaroids of dismembered fetuses in plastic bowls... hundreds of those just as an example. Some of them nearly whole... some small, some fairly large... some scrambled by the medical instruments, others split down the middle... some covered in goo, others angelic and peaceful looking...

Looking back, it's probably the reason that I'm not bothered by any kind of gore. I've seen more dead mangled babies than any other person you are likely to know. Even the gore of the internet is somehow not as....er..... Nevermind.

I don't believe abortion is ever a good option, especially when considering the tremendous emotional and physical trauma to the mother. The way things are going there won't be any kids to adopt in the future for people who would love to have kids, but cant.

Abortion is terrible

Quote from: Deep Blue;1330808I don't believe abortion is ever a good option, especially when considering the tremendous emotional and physical trauma to the mother. The way things are going there won't be any kids to adopt in the future for people who would love to have kids, but cant.

QFT

the world is a terrible place not suitable for anyone end of fucking story.

pro-abortion

pro-adoption

anti-breeding

tl;dr

Lmao women.
I had an old friend, and her sister was a bit of a 'whore.' Her YOUNGEST sister was fine, however the middle was just a pure attention-seeking whore. She went around and had sex with random ass men, etc etc.

The oldest girl, my friend, had a baby. He is now 3 years old and she's trying to keep him from the ex-husband who abused her.

The middle-sister got pregnant not too long ago, a few months maybe. She had an abortion. She's probably fucking some random guy right now.

In all honesty, fuck both Anti-abortionists and people who get abortions. I don't think it should be illegal but if you CAN manage raising the kid, you should. You went and had unprotected sex. Unless you were raped or he took off the condom while you weren't looking, or whatever... It's your fucking fault.

Both of them are hypocrites. Fuck both of them!

EDIT: that was a weird post

People could use condoms and prevent to get someone pregnant!
How's that for an idea.

Quote from: Predator;1330600What I don't understand about people who are anti-abortion (I refuse to use the term pro-life because, seriously, who's anti-life?) is simply this: Do they know that there was a time when abortion was illegal and that people still got them in unsanitary, shit-hole environments? Why do they think it was legalized? Why do they think that it would actually be better for society if abortions were illegal?

You're killing life. There's no debate about that.
The debate is what you "classify" as living.

This article is my new homepage

(https://clockcrew.net/talk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi261.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii55%2FGabeGuide%2FAbortion.jpg&hash=f5babf9c806bf316a34cc9858ca0f8863e4a6420)

Quote from: Deep Blue;1330808I don't believe abortion is ever a good option, especially when considering the tremendous emotional and physical trauma to the mother. The way things are going there won't be any kids to adopt in the future for people who would love to have kids, but cant.

What about the emotional trauma of going through the pain of childbirth knowing you get nothing out or it? What about the trauma of actually having to hand a baby over to someone else and never see it again? What about the pain of raising a child out of guilt? The pain of hating your own child because you're only raising it due to beliefs or conditions? What about the pain of a sixteen year-old girl bringing a baby home? What about someone becoming a single mother who cannot support a child? "Abortion is never a good option" is a stupid thing to say, especially considering what you used to back the argument up.

im pro-abortion and i dont care what anyone has to say about it.

Quote from: ONIONATOR;1330720The only thing that I don't like about abortion is it could potentially prevent the birth of somebody important. I guess that 's only an issue with me because my mom was in a pretty bad situation when she was pregnant and she had to consider an abortion. If she had decided to, I wouldn't have been born..

i wish you would have been coathangered so i didnt have to read your long stupid post.

Quote from: Deep Blue;1330808I haven't been fed any kind of anti-abortion propaganda in my life... I've been left to make my own decisions...

hahahahahahahah

I gotta agree with Blue on this one.
Also, to say that abortion is fine because it was made legal is stupid.

ok, so a while ago a good friend of mine got his girlfriend pregnant,  she was taking the pill but she had had an ear infection a week earlier and was still on antibiotics (not knowing the pill doesn't work when on antibiotics). She is 17 and just started at college, he is 19 and just started at a new job.  She got an abortion and everything is a-ok.

Topcatyo's sig takes away all of the seriousness of this thread.

Quote from: ONIONATOR;1330720The only thing that I don't like about abortion is it could potentially prevent the birth of somebody important.

The problem with this sort of logic is that it works both ways. For instance, if you could go back in time and abort Adolf Hitler, wouldn't you?

I also think people tend to over-estimate the nature of identity. Identity is created by the environment someone is raised in. There is not a genetic disposition for how someone turns out. Let us pretend that your mother had chosen abortion. Now, let us say that she is at a point where she has her life together and decides she wants a planned parenthood. Technically, you were still born. You may have different physical features and a slightly different personality, but you are still essentially the same person. Being born at a different time when your life was better prepared for probably made your life better. You are over-analyzing the concept of who you are. Identity is a construct created by humans. If you had been aborted, you wouldn't care.

In short, I guess what I am trying to say is, abortion (logically) does not hinder or deter the procreation of good or bad people.

Quote from: Deep Blue;1330808I don't believe abortion is ever a good option, especially when considering the tremendous emotional and physical trauma to the mother. The way things are going there won't be any kids to adopt in the future for people who would love to have kids, but cant.

What about the emotional trauma for children who were abandoned. Even if they are adopted, it still must be pretty hard knowing that your parents didn't want you.

Nobody is arguing that abortion isn't gorey. But how exactly does this effect any aspect of the argument. Surgery in general are gorey, and many would describe childbirth as grotesque. Should those be illegal? The problem is that you have formed your opinion based on a traumatic experience in your life. Yes, it is sad that at such a young age you discovered this treasure trove of horrors, but your opinion is totally reactionary and doesn't really function on logic.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1330936You're killing life. There's no debate about that.
The debate is what you "classify" as living.

Marlin, if you had actually read my post thoroughly, you would have realized that I am not trying to define or classify life. I am expressing the irony of anti-abortionists calling themselves "pro-life" so that people who are pro-abortion are immediately classified as "anti-life."

Somehow, we got way off topic here. We are not really talking about the article anymore. Deep Blue started his post with saying he sided with the anti-abortionists, showing to me that he didn't really read the article. The article is not about why abortion is right or wrong. The article is showing that when anti-abortionists are faced with unwanted pregnancy, they often treat the matter as if they are a special case, and then seek abortion. I have no problem if you people want to express contrary views to mine on abortion, but don't rush to the defense of hypocrites and people who obviously don't have the patience to read the article.

Why is there a discussion about it anyway, if you don't want an abortion, then don't take one but don't go around making decisions for others.

Quote from: Niko Bellic;1331105She got an abortion and everything is a-ok.

:)  What a happy ending

I once knew a Catholic who very much believed in the rules of her creed (i.e. absolutely no premarital sex), but felt somehow that it was okay for her to do it anyway, and slept around quite a bit.

I've found myself get mad at people when they don't show up for things when they say they will, even though I have a terrible habit of doing it myself (I'm so bad at it my friends will joke and say "Well in Cable time, we apparently aren't meeting for another 30 minutes"). I try not to get mad about it anymore, and I've actually become really good about getting to work on time lately.

But basically, just about everyone is a hypocrite in some way or another. They don't like it when they are the victim of something undesirable, but can't help being the perpetrator of a lot of the same behaviors themselves, because they're human.

Really, anymore, it's just when these people want to legislate against the behavior that they're guilty of is when it really bothers me anymore. It kind of annoys me when people aren't aware of their own hypocrisy also, but people have a habit of not really looking at themselves in the mirror to much to help them cope with life, so it's a bit more understandable.

Quote from: Reisen;1331147Why is there a discussion about it anyway, if you don't want an abortion, then don't take one but don't go around making decisions for others.

THIS.

People pushing their values on others that have different values is one of the most ignorant, arrogant, and obnoxious things you can do. Everyone is entitled to have their own principles, values, and opinions. It is not your place to tell them that they are wrong and should think just like you, because your opinions are right.

Really it's not anyone's decision but the mother's herself. For you to tell her that her decision is wrong because your opinions are better than hers, is wrong. Someone else's abortion has nothing to do with you and never will.

Pro Choice.

The article is kind of amusing though, the hypocrisy is astounding.

Everybody is a hypocrite but me.
irony

anti-abortionists are terrorists or communists or both

i like how blue says he wasn't fed any antiabortion propaganda yet he stumbled upon an enormous box full of pictures of dead babies and antiabortion literature.

you fed yourself and ate it up, also i'd like to know what kind of a family keeps boxes of dead baby pictures around the house.

Quote from: ChickenClock;1331338anti-abortionists are terrorists or communists or both

Not far off (I know you were joking). They tend to use gorey scare tactics a lot to promote reactionist responses from people: "Look at these pictures of aborted fetuses! Look how bloody and disgusting it is! It must be wrong!"

I also hate people who say 'the punishment should fit the crime' when referring to illegalizing abortion and what the punishment should be for performing it. Thankfully, I have met very few people who are anti-abortion who believe this dribble.

I don't think abortion is right but I'm certainly not going to force other people to believe my viewpoint or tell them not to get an abortion.
I mean, yeah, it's kinda murder, but the thing is unborn and some women won't be able to handle the childbearing.
It's a really morally ambiguous thing.

Quote from: Predator;1331145Marlin, if you had actually read my post thoroughly, you would have realized that I am not trying to define or classify life. I am expressing the irony of anti-abortionists calling themselves "pro-life" so that people who are pro-abortion are immediately classified as "anti-life."

But you are anti-life, if you weren't you wouldn't be destroying life.

Quote from: Predator;1331352I also hate people who say 'the punishment should fit the crime' when referring to illegalizing abortion and what the punishment should be for performing it. Thankfully, I have met very few people who are anti-abortion who believe this dribble.

I always thought that meant being charged for murder, which I don't see any problems with.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1331444I always thought that meant being charged for murder, which I don't see any problems with.

so you think abortion is the same thing as a murder?

Marlin sheds a tear every day for the loss of all the semen that couldn't make it as a child.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1331444But you are anti-life, if you weren't you wouldn't be destroying life.

Are you even listening to me? Just because I am for abortion doesn't mean I'm anti-life period. It makes no sense, and neither does the misnomer of being pro-life. Tons of people in the south are "pro-life," but, then again, many people in the south are either pro-war or pro-death penalty or both. How exactly is that being pro-life? In the boarder sense, terms like pro or anti life only serve to enhance people's senses of self-righteousness. Just say what you are: anti-abortion.

Quote from: Marlix WrightI always thought that meant being charged for murder, which I don't see any problems with.

I meant in terms of the person believing that abortionist should be executed for their crime. Furthermore, what about the women who get abortions? Shouldn't they be accomplices to murder?

Procreating is gay, and so are abortion debates. And Marlin have some respect. Instead of making baseless shit talk say something like "I believe they should be charged with murder because blahblahblahblahblah." This thing is so fucking old it reeks of failure. If I get off my plane and see this is reeking up the debate forum I'll shut this motha down!

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1331937Procreating is gay, and so are abortion debates. And Marlin have some respect. Instead of making baseless shit talk say something like "I believe they should be charged with murder because blahblahblahblahblah." This thing is so fucking old it reeks of failure. If I get off my plane and see this is reeking up the debate forum I'll shut this motha down!

Woah. The sheriff is back in town.

Truth is you're right, this argument has been worn down to the bones, I got sick of constantly explaining my side circa two years ago.

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1331937"I believe they should be charged with murder because blahblahblahblahblah."

Funny story, this guy actually wants to get into law or something.

Quote from: ChickenClock;1331475Marlin sheds a tear every day for the loss of all the semen that couldn't make it as a child.

Hahaha

I'm pretty sure the guy who was supposed to find a cure for cancer was already aborted like 5 times.

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1331937Procreating is gay, and so are abortion debates. And Marlin have some respect. Instead of making baseless shit talk say something like "I believe they should be charged with murder because blahblahblahblahblah." This thing is so fucking old it reeks of failure. If I get off my plane and see this is reeking up the debate forum I'll shut this motha down!

But we weren't initially talking about the classic abortion, right-or-wrong debate. We were talking about anti-abortionists being hypocrites. Unfortunately, there is a disease among these forums instilling people with the inability to actually read the first post or the accompanying article.

Anti-abortionists can be hypocrites when put in a position, just like many other people can be on other subjects. But it is just exceedingly I'm a edgy teen to still vehemently support the Anti-abortionists' deluded cause after you've actually committed the act yourself.

The average anti-abortionist I wouldn't say is a hypocrite, but I do believe it is my right to safeguard the clinics with automatic rifles, if they should step foot on the perimeter. It's not a protest against abortion, you're unlawfully harassing mentally anguished people and let's not forget that the  majority of the people going into these places are there for routine gynecological check-ups, infections and such, they don't need to deal with your idiocy and be branded a "baby-killer".

However the real hypocrisy within "the Cause" is that they have the gall to pretend like their arguments held any sort of merit (If I strain myself to look through fundie-eyes) when they actually state that they're against it except in cases of rape. I don't get the reasoning behind that at all, because your side states that a fetus is a human life just like you or me, unless it's father was an asshole?

Jolly good.

There's not a lot of debate here actually. There are anti-abortionists who think abortion is a-okay when they themselves get knocked up unwanted. That's hypocritcal yes, so what exactly do you want us to debate?

Quote from: ChickenClock;1332190There's not a lot of debate here actually. There are anti-abortionists who think abortion is a-okay when they get knocked up unwanted. That's hypocritcal yes, so what exactly do you want us to debate?

I don't think he really wanted us to debate it, he was just showing the news article when he posted this thread in the General forum., then it turned into an abortion debate, then the thread got moved here.

oh, right-o

Quote from: SplatterClock;1332051I'm pretty sure the guy who was supposed to find a cure for cancer was already aborted like 5 times.

its a conspiracy to make sure the cure is never found so people will still have to pay for treatment.

Quote from: Teapot;1330893Lmao women.
I had an old friend, and her sister was a bit of a 'whore.' Her YOUNGEST sister was fine, however the middle was just a pure attention-seeking whore. She went around and had sex with random ass men, etc etc.

The oldest girl, my friend, had a baby. He is now 3 years old and she's trying to keep him from the ex-husband who abused her.

The middle-sister got pregnant not too long ago, a few months maybe. She had an abortion. She's probably fucking some random guy right now.

In all honesty, fuck both Anti-abortionists and people who get abortions. I don't think it should be illegal but if you CAN manage raising the kid, you should. You went and had unprotected sex. Unless you were raped or he took off the condom while you weren't looking, or whatever... It's your fucking fault.

Both of them are hypocrites. Fuck both of them!

You're ignorance is astounding. 'Women who get abortions are obviously whores! It's not like there is a broad phenomenon of ignorance about proper condom use, right! And it's not like they break or anything! And because I know two women who got abortions and they were both whores women who get pregnant and get abortions in general are whores and it is all their fault!' Congratulations. Your post is merely a small example about how sexist attitudes have made abortion labeled as a 'women's issues.' News flash, genius: males are the ones who get women pregnant. Just because the women has to carry around the evidence of a mistake doesn't mean she is the only one at fault.

Quote from: China Clock;1332105The average anti-abortionist I wouldn't say is a hypocrite, but I do believe it is my right to safeguard the clinics with automatic rifles, if they should step foot on the perimeter. It's not a protest against abortion, you're unlawfully harassing mentally anguished people

BAHAHAHAHA

"Hey, I don't think I'm morally wrong for abortion. Killing people for exercising their first amendment rights is A-Okay too.
I make so much sense."

Quotewhen they actually state that they're against it except in cases of rape.

Doesn't mean they're right. They're just letting the tragedy outweigh the murder.

Quote from: Predator;1332287You're ignorance is astounding. 'Women who get abortions are obviously whores! It's not like there is a broad phenomenon of ignorance about proper condom use, right! And it's not like they break or anything! And because I know two women who got abortions and they were both whores women who get pregnant and get abortions in general are whores and it is all their fault!' Congratulations. Your post is merely a small example about how sexist attitudes have made abortion labeled as a 'women's issues.' News flash, genius: males are the ones who get women pregnant. Just because the women has to carry around the evidence of a mistake doesn't mean she is the only one at fault.

But are you saying that barring rape she still does not hold any responsibility? That is ignorant.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332443But are you saying that barring rape she still does not hold any responsibility?

I'm not suggesting that she doesn't have any responsibility for a pregnancy. I'm saying that there are too many people in society who classify it as a woman's own fault if she gets pregnant or not. They take men totally out of the equation. It takes two to people to make a baby. To summarize a woman's need to have an abortion as her just being a whore who carries total responsibility for a mistake is sheer ignorance at its worst. Unless it's in cases of rape, where the man is totally at fault, people tend to think of it as the 'woman's problem.' This is what was ignorant about his post.

ALSO: It is in fact possible to believe in the right to free speech and not care, like, or want to listen to what you have to say.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332443BAHAHAHAHA

"Hey, I don't think I'm morally wrong for abortion. Killing people for exercising their first amendment rights is A-Okay too.
I make so much sense."

Note how I didn't say "Shoot on sight". I said safeguard the place and there can't be any safeguarding if they're all corpses, no?

The freedom of speech includes several freedoms, none of which support "my right to harass people". It does however include the right not to listen, and if you're grabbing women going into clinic and shouting babymurderer at them (not to mention it's assault), then don't bitch when the Safeguarders take matters into their own hands.

Your movement should probably not be speaking so high and mighty either, considering the murdering of doctors. Thanks.

To be honest I don't give a shit if it's murdering or not, although it is merely a clob of cells that isn't isn't self-aware nor does it think. It's not important to me. I value a real person's will and lifechoices over a clump of tissue that couldn't care less.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332443Doesn't mean they're right. They're just letting the tragedy outweigh the murder.

So, you're saying that there should be a worse penalty for rape than murder? You make so much sense.

I hate this thread so much.

Quote from: China Clock;1332575Note how I didn't say "Shoot on sight". I said safeguard the place and there can't be any safeguarding if they're all corpses, no?

The freedom of speech includes several freedoms, none of which support "my right to harass people". It does however include the right not to listen, and if you're grabbing women going into clinic and shouting babymurderer at them (not to mention it's assault), then don't bitch when the Safeguarders take matters into their own hands.

Nobody grabs people, that's just stupid. Have you ever been to a clinic when pro-life people are protesting?

QuoteYour movement should probably not be speaking so high and mighty either, considering the murdering of doctors. Thanks.

Sorry, that's not my movement then. Try not lumping us all in one group like you always do.

QuoteTo be honest I don't give a shit if it's murdering or not, although it is merely a clob of cells that isn't isn't self-aware nor does it think. It's not important to me. I value a real person's will and lifechoices over a clump of tissue that couldn't care less.

I never got the "not a real person" thing. It has its own DNA from conception, that itself proves it is a unique and very human individual.

QuoteSo, you're saying that there should be a worse penalty for rape than murder? You make so much sense.

How the hell did you infer that?

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332651I never got the "not a real person" thing. It has its own DNA from conception, that itself proves it is a unique and very human individual.

I am guessing you take things like viruses to be "life" then?

What about mutated cells, are they life too?

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332651Nobody grabs people, that's just stupid. Have you ever been to a clinic when pro-life people are protesting?

Any touch whatsoever. What business do you have being there in the first place? All you're doing is harassing women who either have nothing to do with it, are going through a hard time and don't need you piling more onto it, or who simply don't care.

If you're there to possible sway some minds then all you're doing is preying on the unstable, which would make you have something in common with cults, would it not? If you want to protest the law then do it at a political function.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332651Sorry, that's not my movement then. Try not lumping us all in one group like you always do.

I know that, but there's no point in this thread. There's no actual room for real arguments. :P

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332651I never got the "not a real person" thing. It has its own DNA from conception, that itself proves it is a unique and very human individual.

In response to the posts replying to this: Of course it's "life", guys, it's an independant biological organism.

What I'd rephrase the question to would be something to the effect of: "Why is this clump of biomatter more alive than said virus or mutated bacteria?".

If you haven't noticed, we all (mostly) have our own unique DNA. What exactly makes this clump of biomatter different from having your appendix removed? It's flesh that has it's own DNA, combined from the person's mother and father. It doesn't have organs, it'd die if any of the person's supportive systems didn't take care of it anymore and it sure as hell isn't self-aware.

I'm sorry, but "It would've been a person" doesn't work with me as grounds for "murder". You might aswell start suing people who did something through the course of history that altered which egg your sperm would've gotten into because it'd been a more perfect combination or situation.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332651How the hell did you infer that?

You said the tradgedy of her being raped outweighed her getting rid of the fetus (or "murdering the baby", as you would have it). Thus you stated that murder was less tragic than rape.

My mom aborted me when i was a baby and i turned out fine.

Ug, Pro-life is the most closed-minded phrase ever. I don't feel that abortions are the only answer, but who would want to bring up a child if the circumstances don't allow it? I've seen people who have lost a lot more then they would lose from an abortion, because they refused to get one. You aren't "alive" until you come out of your mothers womb. I also support stem cells. They could be a "cure-all" medicine. Interesting Fact: More human embryos are destroyed by chance in the human body than is stem cell reaserch?

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332651I never got the "not a real person" thing. It has its own DNA from conception, that itself proves it is a unique and very human individual.

So tell me. Are bugs, fish, cancer, tumors, viruses and avian flu human? DNA does not prove wether or not something is an induvidual. Oh, and what about twins? One of the types of twins are basicly clones, sharing the exact SAME DNA. Are they NOT people?

Quote from: Reisen;1332659What about mutated cells, are they life too?

Aren't cells supposed to mutate at times?

Quote from: GearBox;1332758So tell me. Are bugs, fish, cancer, tumors, viruses and avian flu human? DNA does not prove wether or not something is an induvidual. Oh, and what about twins? One of the types of twins are basicly clones, sharing the exact SAME DNA. Are they NOT people?

An unborn child is the direct offspring of the man's semen and the woman's egg, so yeah it's kind of an individual.  That's how all of us came to be.  You know that you're an individual, and you once lived in your mother's womb, so...

Quote from: RomanCollarClock;1332767Aren't cells supposed to mutate at times?

yah they do, sometimes mutated cells turn into cancer though so that's not nice! but normally speaking cells are supposed to mutate.

Quote from: RomanCollarClock;1332767Aren't cells supposed to mutate at times?

That's what I mean, what Marlin says is that if it's a individual because it has it's own unique DNA, well fine then, then isn't A mutated cell a unique lifeform too? if so then removing tumours is also murder and preventing radiation is anticonception.

Quote from: Reisen;1332770That's what I mean, what Marlin says is that if it's a individual because it has it's own unique DNA, well fine then, then isn't A mutated cell a unique lifeform too? if so then removing tumours is also murder and preventing radiation is anticonception.

I would have read that but it was TL;DR.  :cool:

Quote from: RomanCollarClock;1332771I would have read that but it was TL;DR.  :cool:

Marlins arguement holds no water.

Quote from: RomanCollarClock;1332767Aren't cells supposed to mutate at times?



An unborn child is the direct offspring of the man's semen and the woman's egg, so yeah it's kind of an individual.  That's how all of us came to be.  You know that you're an individual, and you once lived in your mother's womb, so...

Well, not really. I am an induvidual, and I was born in a womb, But, all mammals are born from the genetic mixing of an egg, and semen. So unless Monty Python's The Meaning of Life's song "Every Sperm is Sacred" is right, You aren't an induvidual untill your born. Oh, and condoms are murdering "People that could have been...

Quote from: ʎɹɹǝqlıʌǝ;1332577I hate this thread so much.

Quote from: GearBox;1332808Well, not really. I am an induvidual, and I was born in a womb, But, all mammals are born from the genetic mixing of an egg, and semen. So unless Monty Python's The Meaning of Life's song "Every Sperm is Sacred" is right, You aren't an induvidual untill your born. Oh, and condoms are murdering "People that could have been...

Nobody is saying that a sperm is a person.  A sperm is just a product of the male body, but the union of the sperm and egg is what starts life.  An unborn (union of the sperm and egg) also has its own unique DNA (different from its mother and father), as well as a separate set of organs.  

Furthermore, the child isn't its own individual (by your standards) until it is physically unattached from the womb.  That means that when the baby exits the womb, it is still attached to the mother by the umbilical cord.  Therefore, you could still kill the baby, so long as the cord isn't cut.  That doesn't sound too pretty to me.

Quote from: GearBox;1332747Interesting Fact: More human embryos are destroyed by chance in the human body than is stem cell reaserch?

Also an interesting fact: most of the embryos used in stem cell research do not come from aborted fetuses. Most of them come from unused embryos from when couples attempt artificial conception.

Quote from: Predator;1332840Also an interesting fact: most of the embryos used in stem cell research do not come from aborted fetuses. Most of them come from unused embryos from when couples attempt artificial conception.

Stem cell research is a bullshit reason these days since we've found human stem-cells that can do just as good, no fetuses attached.

While we're on it, why isn't it feti?

somebody give me a neutral, unbiased and accurate thread recap

Quote from: Bjggs;1333053somebody give me a neutral, unbiased and accurate thread recap

Predator links to an article about Anti-Abortion advocates getting abortions when they're faced with pregnancy because they feel they're special cases or something.  Then it turned into a debate about whether abortion is right or wrong, then about what's considered life, then about whether Elvis was more influential than Bob Dylan or not.
Something along those lines.

Quote from: The Prince of All Cosmos;1333068Predator links to an article about Anti-Abortion advocates getting abortions when they're faced with pregnancy because they feel they're special cases or something.  Then it turned into a debate about whether abortion is right or wrong, then about what's considered life, then about whether Elvis was more influential than Bob Dylan or not.
Something along those lines.

The Clock Crew: Tomorrow's historians today.

Quote from: Bjggs;1333053somebody give me a neutral, unbiased and accurate thread recap

"Blah blah blah blah"

Anti-abortion all the way. People tell me I have no opinion because I am a man, but that is just stupid. Once a baby is concieved it is a tiny life. Killing it is not the answer. If you don't want it, put it up for adoption. Just because you were stupid, or raped, does not mean that the baby deserves to die. It's not the baby's fault, why should it be the one killed?

One of the only, very few, times I believe in abortion is in the case of a harlequin fetus or any other medical condition such as that.

If believing that mothers do not have the right to choose whether or not their baby dies makes me not believe in "freedom" or "the American way" or whatever, so fuckin' be it.

Now I'm not quite as extreme as Marlin, I don't think people who had abortions should be punished, but I think they should be put to a stop now. People who had abortion usually don't think about what they are doing the same way you and I do, Marlin, therefore it was not a murderous intent.


If everything was an "eye for an eye," the whole world would be blind.

Quote from: Cheshire Clock;1333251Just because you were stupid, or raped, does not mean that the baby deserves to die. It's not the baby's fault, why should it be the one killed?

One of the only, very few, times I believe in abortion is in the case of a harlequin fetus or any other medical condition such as that.

Harlequin fetuses?

QuoteIt's not the baby's fault, why should it be the one killed?

I don't see what those harlequin fetuses have done to deserve to "BE MURDERED".

You guys say you want the best for the baby, but why would you then force it on a, let's say, 16-year old girl? Is that the best for the child?

Quote from: Notoorjus;1333257Harlequin fetuses? I don't see what those harlequin fetuses have done to deserve to "BE MURDERED".

You guys say you want the best for the baby, but why would you then force it on a, let's say, 16-year old girl? Is that the best for the child?

A harlequin fetus is an incurable disease in which the skin can't stretch, so the baby lives a few days in terrible pain and can't move without cracking it's skin open, the cracks later become infected and they rarely live more that a few hours to a day or so, and the mothers are left psychologically scarred.

Also, I think that the babies should be put up for adoption. And we aren't "forcing" it on the girl by not killing, she's having it. It's not like she did not have a 9 month preparation. It's not like someone walked up to her and handed it to her, and she had nothing to do with it, and there is NO WAY she can put it up for adoption. Of course this does not apply in rape, but then I believe in adoption.

Plus I know kids who were born of 16 year old mothers who turn out fine. Killing them is just say that we know FOR SURE that the baby will amount to nothing. That's not even giving it a chance.

Quote from: RomanCollarClock;1332835Nobody is saying that a sperm is a person.  A sperm is just a product of the male body, but the union of the sperm and egg is what starts life.  An unborn (union of the sperm and egg) also has its own unique DNA (different from its mother and father), as well as a separate set of organs.  

Furthermore, the child isn't its own individual (by your standards) until it is physically unattached from the womb.  That means that when the baby exits the womb, it is still attached to the mother by the umbilical cord.  Therefore, you could still kill the baby, so long as the cord isn't cut.  That doesn't sound too pretty to me.

I did not mean that. I ment that if A pregnancy isn't like 8 1/2 months down the line you should get an abortion. I mean that, nothing is an induvidual while its in the womb. Abortions aren't murder. Your just killing a group of cells. I heard that at about, 5 or 6 months, an abortion can be dangerous. To the mother. Oh, and if Abortions were illegal, people would use clothehangers. Whish is infinetly worse.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1332943Stem cell research is a bullshit reason these days since we've found human stem-cells that can do just as good, no fetuses attached.

While we're on it, why isn't it feti?

What do you mean by that? The research is to find new ways to use HUMAN stem cells, because you can't just pour them on a wound. Oh, and if we were allowed to clone stem cells, we wouldn't need that many more embryos.

Quote from: Cheshire Clock;1333344A harlequin fetus is an incurable disease in which the skin can't stretch, so the baby lives a few days in terrible pain and can't move without cracking it's skin open, the cracks later become infected and they rarely live more that a few hours to a day or so, and the mothers are left psychologically scarred.

Also, I think that the babies should be put up for adoption. And we aren't "forcing" it on the girl by not killing, she's having it. It's not like she did not have a 9 month preparation. It's not like someone walked up to her and handed it to her, and she had nothing to do with it, and there is NO WAY she can put it up for adoption. Of course this does not apply in rape, but then I believe in adoption.

Plus I know kids who were born of 16 year old mothers who turn out fine. Killing them is just say that we know FOR SURE that the baby will amount to nothing. That's not even giving it a chance.

Lol, third post in a row.
Tell me, did you know that birth, is the single most painful experiance in most female lives. Plus, I think that many would be scarred if they just gave away the baby. It isn't murder if it isn't born. I may sound cold, but I bet thats all you read when you, if you ever, read pro-abortion arguments.

Quote from: GearBox;1333363Oh, and if Abortions were illegal, people would use clothehangers. Whish is infinetly worse.

This is a good point. Abortions were made legal mostly due to the women's rights movements of the 60s and 70s, but one of the crucial arguments for legalization is that there is no way that you could prevent abortion. People were already getting them in large numbers and in completely unsanitary environments (and to a certain extent, this still happens today). Part of the reason for the legalization of abortion came from the need to offer a safe, secure environment for women who had to get abortions and for whom the burden of childbirth would be unfair. In addition, it was decided that a LIVING, CONSCIOUS PERSON'S LIFE AND ABILITY TO CHOOSE was more important than an UNCONSCIOUS, INCOMPLETE INDIVIDUAL, someone who hasn't even been born yet and could have no opinion on the matter whatsoever.

Census... Have we accomplished anything with this debate or are the same people still stroking their self righteous egos again? On another note this debate would be much more simple to go through if you folks could use some brevity. The man who has much to say has nothing at all to say.

Why hello there.

Quote from: GearBox;1333363I did not mean that. I ment that if A pregnancy isn't like 8 1/2 months down the line you should get an abortion. I mean that, nothing is an induvidual while its in the womb. Abortions aren't murder. Your just killing a group of cells. I heard that at about, 5 or 6 months, an abortion can be dangerous. To the mother. Oh, and if Abortions were illegal, people would use clothehangers. Whish is infinetly worse.

Who would be stupid enough to go through the danger of jabbing a coathanger up themselves just for an abortion? That's their own fault for being so selfish that they'd risk their life just because they messed up.

Really I've always thought the coathanger thing was a joke, anyway.

QuoteWhat do you mean by that? The research is to find new ways to use HUMAN stem cells, because you can't just pour them on a wound. Oh, and if we were allowed to clone stem cells, we wouldn't need that many more embryos.

Sorry, meant embryonic stem cell research.

QuoteLol, third post in a row.
Tell me, did you know that birth, is the single most painful experiance in most female lives. Plus, I think that many would be scarred if they just gave away the baby. It isn't murder if it isn't born. I may sound cold, but I bet thats all you read when you, if you ever, read pro-abortion arguments.

And the earth keeps turning as those who have their minds made up just add to the second law of thermodynamics, only to burn out, waiting to be rekindled by another fuse.

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1333410Census... Have we accomplished anything with this debate or are the same people still stroking their self righteous egos again?

I don't believe I'm self-righteous, but I guess it could be portrayed that way.

QuoteOn another note this debate would be much more simple to go through if you folks could use some brevity. The man who has much to say has nothing at all to say.

Brevity is the soul of wit, eh? It's just not my style, Absinthe.

Aw poor Marlin, always trying to go against the stream, without acknowledging that in the end he won't get anywere.

Quote from: Reisen;1333569Aw poor Marlin, always trying to go against the stream, without acknowledging that in the end he won't get anywere.

I know I won't get anywhere. The problem is that I'm just as proud as them and won't back down to a fight even if I know I won't win.

Such wasted effords, atleast try to find a middle ground

Quote from: Reisen;1333582Such wasted effords, atleast try to find a middle ground

These sorts of things aren't the arguments you can compromise on.

You could if you were to put the same amount of efford in it as you do in defending your side.

It's not a style. It's blabbering till you get somewhere. If a man has a machine gun and he's shooting it everywhere to kill one man that doesn't make him a marksman.

On another note this topic is pretty gay so I'm going to shut it down.

Quote from: يانسون نكهة كحول;1333602On another note this topic is pretty gay so I'm going to shut it down.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYA

Quote from: يانسون نكهة كحول;1333602It's not a style. It's blabbering till you get somewhere. If a man has a machine gun and he's shooting it everywhere to kill one man that doesn't make him a marksman.

On another note this topic is pretty gay so I'm going to shut it down.

I might find the debate forum readable again with you back moderating!