Prostitution, drugs, and so forth.
Remove the illegal black market so crime cannot prosper. All these things could be taxed and regulated(just like food and plumbers) so people who currently use these fine services won't be laced or diseased.
Problem. Crime often stems from drug use, and drugs are very dangerous.
Quote from: GearBox;1432698Problem. Crime often stems from drug use, and drugs are very dangerous.
No.
http://www.leap.ccProhibition causes the crime. =P
Anarchy doesn't work.
The idea that legalization creates a market which can be taxed is a fantasy. In the case of drugs there's an existing infrastructure for the creation and distribution of these substances.In the event of legalization, this won't go away. Legal drug producers will need to built their business from the ground up pushing production costs. With such dangerous products there would no doubt need to be some kind of government oversight to control quality, another cha ching there. Finally, theres this big wonderful tax you promise. Add all this up and your new, legal drugs will be a hell of a lot more expensive then getting it from the guy on the corner whom you've relied on for so long. Sure, it may be somewhat safer, but as prostitution in Nevada shows this isn't enough to convince most people. In Nevada prostitution is legal in certain areas (pay close attention, I'm about to show you why legal prostitution doesn't work either). For the quality of life for those involved and safety of both patrons and sex workers, these establishments can only exist in areas with a low population, mandatory health checks, and considerable oversight. These businesses operate successfully, but expensively. Even in Nevada, an artificial state which has had the benefit of being created with prostitution from the start, they realize that its not appropriate for most areas and has to be controlled with care. Yet even here, in Nevada where theres a legal, clean, and safe way to get fucked from cash guess what one of their largest problems is? OH SHIT! ILLEGAL PROSTITUTION! LV Metro PD is kept busy on patrols, stings, and all sorts of arrests related to illegal prostitution. This shows that even in areas where theres a legal answer to something like this, people will still go to an illegal source if its more convenient, expedient, and cheaper.
And that's why you're wrong about everything.
The problem with prostitution is that it spreads disease.
Drugs is potentionally deadly and makes people careless.
That, and everything I said above.
Quote from: Joe;1432722The idea that legalization creates a market which can be taxed is a fantasy. In the case of drugs there's an existing infrastructure for the creation and distribution of these substances.In the event of legalization, this won't go away. Legal drug producers will need to built their business from the ground up pushing production costs. With such dangerous products there would no doubt need to be some kind of government oversight to control quality, another cha ching there. Finally, theres this big wonderful tax you promise. Add all this up and your new, legal drugs will be a hell of a lot more expensive then getting it from the guy on the corner whom you've relied on for so long. Sure, it may be somewhat safer, but as prostitution in Nevada shows this isn't enough to convince most people. In Nevada prostitution is legal in certain areas (pay close attention, I'm about to show you why legal prostitution doesn't work either). For the quality of life for those involved and safety of both patrons and sex workers, these establishments can only exist in areas with a low population, mandatory health checks, and considerable oversight. These businesses operate successfully, but expensively. Even in Nevada, an artificial state which has had the benefit of being created with prostitution from the start, they realize that its not appropriate for most areas and has to be controlled with care. Yet even here, in Nevada where theres a legal, clean, and safe way to get fucked from cash guess what one of their largest problems is? OH SHIT! ILLEGAL PROSTITUTION! LV Metro PD is kept busy on patrols, stings, and all sorts of arrests related to illegal prostitution. This shows that even in areas where theres a legal answer to something like this, people will still go to an illegal source if its more convenient, expedient, and cheaper.
And that's why you're wrong about everything.
The market thats in place is highly clandestine, convoluted, adulterated and most of all its inflated with insanely expensive prices. The proposed legalized weed to be sold in convinence stores in British Columbia after taxes clocks in about 4 dollars a gram.
Nevada is a tourist destination, the locals cannot afford this over governed and stipulated service. Look to Amsterdam for a functional prostitution system at work. Notice that in Amsterdam its treated like any other employment available.
Weed=/= Drugs
Quote from: Bottomless;1432762The market thats in place is highly clandestine, convoluted, adulterated and most of all its inflated with insanely expensive prices. The proposed legalized weed to be sold in convinence stores in British Columbia after taxes clocks in about 4 dollars a gram.
That's a conveniently specific number. Mind stating a source for that, or at least some idea of how you came to that arbitrary figure?
Quote from: Bottomless;1432762Nevada is a tourist destination, the locals cannot afford this over governed and stipulated service. Look to Amsterdam for a functional prostitution system at work. Notice that in Amsterdam its treated like any other employment available.
Just because it works in Europe doesn't mean it works here. I'm sure we can both agree that while there are plenty of cultural similarities, there are also a lot of differences. Domestic models should be used when possible.
That said, the problems isn't that locals can't afford prostitution in Nevada as it exists, but rather its just cheaper elsewhere. This absolutely doesn't mean that we should drop standards though. Your talking about a trade that can easily transfer disease, attracts far from the most sophisticated patrons, and is frequently combined with other dangerous behavior. Because of this, the only way that it could possibly be permitted is with the standing regulations- Routine health checks to protect everyone from spreading STDs, security to keep safety, and carefully chosen locations so that the effects of this are localized to only those involved. If your rational for legalizing this is that it stays between only the willing participants than you should also agree that every practical step should be taken to keep that way. The result is a relatively clean business which sustains itself but is unavoidably expensive. Drop the standard and it'll become no safer or better than the illegal trade. The only change would be that then it would be harder for law enforcement to control it and maintain safety for non-participants.
Ugh, okay, while the whole taxation thing could easily irradicate the U.S. national debt, how far can you go before you say enough is enough? Are you goinmg to let people kill others as long as they pay a fee? There are many holes in your plot that you might want to look over before you bring it up. Specifics would be nice.
Quote from: Shakezula;1432789Ugh, okay, while the whole taxation thing could easily irradicate the U.S. national debt.
haha- no. $10,500,114,009,088(estimated). The world GDP is 54,311,608(estimated). Tax on drugs does not work that way. Good night!
Quote from: Joe;1432793haha- no. $10,500,114,009,088(estimated). The world GDP is 54,311,608(estimated). Tax on drugs does not work that way. Good night!
Thats why I asked for specifics, He didn't specify only drugs, he gave little to no specifics. Baised on what I read the original post was to say legalizing everything, in my mind regestered to legalizing everything that is or has ever been illigal and just taxing it. Drugs, Murder, Rape, Jay walking, everything
The 4 dollar figure was published in the Vancouver newspaper the Georgia Straight but I don't have a digital copy to share.
Rape, murder and jay walking are what they are. Unless provided with evidence that they are behaviors deemed unacceptable my stance stays the same.
However on that note things that have to do with you, yourself and any other consenting human being should always be allowed assuming no third parties are being endangered. No ands ifs or buts.
Quote from: The Cheshire Clock;1432766Weed=/= Drugs
Marijauna is a drug. Just like coffee beans and the birch that makes asprin is a drug.
Fair enough, but how well would our country look if we honestly paid for our taxes with prostitution and drug money? We'd look like Columbia, thats how we'd look.
Stop all crimes
by removing all Laws
Quote from: Shakezula;1432813Fair enough, but how well would our country look if we honestly paid for our taxes with prostitution and drug money? We'd look like Columbia, thats how we'd look.
Realistically if people looked to North America - to see a prosperous nation with rock bottom crime & "sin" by traditional conservative standards. Chances are they would follow suit and adapt or remain a third world country.
Quote from: Maltese;1432816Stop all crimes
by removing all Laws
Anarchy doesn't work. Libertarianism is the ideal that stays real.
Quote from: Maltese;1432816Stop all crimes
by removing all Laws
I'm more libertarian than Anarchist but nice try.
Quote from: Bottomless;1432821Realistically if people looked to North America - to see a prosperous nation with rock bottom crime & "sin" by traditional conservative standards. Chances are they would follow suit and adapt or remain a third world country.
Anarchy doesn't work. Libertarianism is the ideal that stays real.
Ah, so it's a win win situation then is it?
Libertarianism is very flawed, in that it is to provide freedoms to businesses, that they don't need
the freedom to abuse, the freedom to cheat, lie and steal.
the government serves a vital purpose. To control the masses so the individual can live freely.
Quote from: Maltese;1432828To control the masses so the individual can live freely.
Hm, that sounds alot like religion. Wonder why...
Quote from: Shakezula;1432830Hm, that sounds alot like religion. Wonder why...
not at all, religion controls the individuals and the control of the masses follows
religion tells you what to do, law tells you not to harm others, that's it.
Quote from: Maltese;1432828Libertarianism is very flawed, in that it is to provide freedoms to businesses, that they don't need
the freedom to abuse, the freedom to cheat, lie and steal.
the government serves a vital purpose. To control the masses so the individual can live freely.
Not quite. Cheating, lying and stealing is always going to be regulated in any type of society. Even in anarchism except some type of karma to catchup to perpetrators. Do a bit of research on the property and business rights in relation to libertarianism. Your skepticism is necessary but the scrutiny is ill found. <3
Expect the concept of corporations to disperse with a libertarian government. Back to work, cheers for now.
Quote from: Joe;1432793haha- no. $10,500,114,009,088(estimated). The world GDP is 54,311,608(estimated). Tax on drugs does not work that way. Good night!
You mean $10 tril US deficit.
And I hope you meant $54 TRILLION and not MILLION.
Also the US GDP is $14 tril
But yea, taxing drugs is a fantasy.
Quote from: Bottomless;1432803assuming no third parties are being endangered. No ands ifs or buts.
Bingo. And because this must be insured there has to be oversight and careful planning. All this is extensive, makes efforts at legalization ineffective, and the entire concept impractical.
Quote from: RomanClock;1432845You mean $10 tril US deficit.
And I hope you meant $54 TRILLION and not MILLION.
yeah that
Quote from: Bottomless;1432821Libertarianism is the ideal that stays real.
Only if you live with your head up your ass.
Yeah I gotta agree with Rev.
Also I could swear I saw Rev make the same argument as he did in the last page sometime before.
Maybe I'm going crazy.
Quote from: Joe;1432854Bingo. And because this must be insured there has to be oversight and careful planning. All this is extensive, makes efforts at legalization ineffective, and the entire concept impractical.
That comment was directed more at sex than drugs. But more than half of police enforcement time is squandered on crime that is set in motion due to supply and demand of the illegal underground drug trade. Imagine having police having half their squads and drug raid teams used to stamp out legitimate crime, do you think quality of life in all inner cities to increase or decrease?
http://leap.cc/cms/index.php?name=Content&pid=26And all that too. =P
Quote from: Bottomless;1432954do you think quality of life in all inner cities
But isn't a large percent of that caused either directly or indirectly to drug use/sale?
Quote from: Mr.Satan;1432969But isn't a large percent of that caused either directly or indirectly to drug use/sale?
Almost all of it.
So why do we pay to lock people up for this? How often do these people repeat offend? By making the means of supply longer and with more middlemen because of enforcement, we see much worse conditions for drug users and people who live in poorer communities.
Quote from: Joe;1432722The idea that legalization creates a market which can be taxed is a fantasy. quote]stoped reading about there.
Quote from: Bottomless;1432954But more than half of police enforcement time is squandered on crime that is set in motion due to supply and demand of the illegal underground drug trade.
Police work doesn't work that way. The bulk of a police force are patrol officers and they cruise around in their vehicles no matter what. They respond to 911 calls and stop people when they have reasonable suspicion to investigate. All drug laws do is give the officers one more thing they can look for when they enter a situation and acts as another tool for public safety. Contrary to popular belief among circles of critics, drug laws don't take up the patrolman's time and funds like its shown on a pie graph or something. Speaking as an a bit of an authority on the subject, I can tell you that drug laws certainly don't hurt the street cop's ability to do his job.
Quote from: Bottomless;1432954Imagine having police having half their squads and drug raid teams used to stamp out legitimate crime
The vast majority of departments don't have specialized "drug raid teams" or massive drug crackdown units. Most departments only have a few detectives specialized in drug investigations, usually linked to other
legitimate crime. Drug raids are relatively few and far between, often carried out by the department's multi-purpose tactical unit. The only law enforcement agency I'm aware of that has SWAT units which only do drug raids are the DEA and ATF. Both of which actually aren't very large federal agencies.
Quote from: Bottomless;1432984So why do we pay to lock people up for this?
DRUG CHARGES ALONE ARE USUALLY NOT ENOUGH TO LAND A PERSON BEHIND BARS. Most of the that drugs are involved in someone being incarcerated there are other violent crimes that the offender is charged with. The problem in these poor urban communities isn't that the mean popo are hauling everyone off to jail for smoking weed and crack. Its that there's a social and economic crisis in these areas which needs to be addressed through social reform and aid. Legalizing drugs won't fix broken communities. These are issues that need to be addressed by the legislature. Law Enforcement is only being able to hold the line by removing the most dangerous elements from society in these neighborhoods.
Quote from: gumfruit;1433331stoped reading about there.
Good job. Thank you very much for letting us know this. You'll be very loved and respected by all here for your wisdom and post quality.
Quote from: billiardball9;1432906Yeah I gotta agree with Rev.
Also I could swear I saw Rev make the same argument as he did in the last page sometime before.
Maybe I'm going crazy.
you are going crazy.
Quote from: Joe;1432778Just because it works in Europe doesn't mean it works here. I'm sure we can both agree that while there are plenty of cultural similarities, there are also a lot of differences. Domestic models should be used when possible.
Except that the cultural differences between the eastern and western countries in question don't stand in the way of the following: We're all capitalists and we all use whores for the same purpose.
Quote from: Fucko;1433573Except that the cultural differences between the eastern and western countries in question don't stand in the way of the following: We're all capitalists and we all use whores for the same purpose.
This is true, but this isn't really an issue of capitalism- it's just being used by a select few as part of their excuse to legalize it. This is really an issue of public safety and what we can afford not to regulate without considerable repercussions.
Quote from: Joe;1433637This is true, but this isn't really an issue of capitalism- it's just being used by a select few as part of their excuse to legalize it. This is really an issue of public safety and what we can afford not to regulate without considerable repercussions.
I'm saying I don't see any reason it would not work here if it works there, with people who use whores for the same purpose as we would in a capitalist system just like ours. There's no reason it couldn't work just as well. But aside from that, how is prostitution in and of it's self a public safety issue?
Quote from: Fucko;1434930But aside from that, how is prostitution in and of it's self a public safety issue?
Uh, STDs?
Quote from: Joe;1432722This shows that even in areas where theres a legal answer to something like this, people will still go to an illegal source if its more convenient, expedient, and cheaper.
Well - I wouldn't say that argument applies to everyone. Stolen ipods are a lot cheaper - and convenient, over eBay - but there still seems to be a market for buying it new, through a company.
I imagine that there would also be a market for prostitutes who are STD-free and drugs that have guarenteed purity. I don't think legalizing these things would be a tool for ending them - but it would make safer options available for those who wanted them.
It would also pave the way to better care for addicts - because state-funded care for drug abuse sometimes is challenged with - "Why should my tax dollars go towards criminals?"
Quote from: Zombie Lincoln;1435109Well - I wouldn't say that argument applies to everyone. Stolen ipods are a lot cheaper - and convenient, over eBay - but there still seems to be a market for buying it new, through a company.
Bad example. Stolen iPods have a supply based on new iPods and because of the nature of the technology is a more complex transaction. A better example would be iPods and other cheaper mp3 players but thats still a stretch.
Quote from: Zombie Lincoln;1435109I imagine that there would also be a market for prostitutes who are STD-free and drugs that have guarenteed purity.
There is, but using the situation in Nevada as an example, this does not destroy the illegal market.
Quote from: Zombie Lincoln;1435109It would also pave the way to better care for addicts - because state-funded care for drug abuse sometimes is challenged with - "Why should my tax dollars go towards criminals?"
Sometimes that's a criticism, but it happens anyway. I think if anything it would make funding more difficult because it would then be considered an accepted activity.
Quote from: Joe;1435141Bad example. Stolen iPods have a supply based on new iPods and because of the nature of the technology is a more complex transaction. A better example would be iPods and other cheaper mp3 players but thats still a stretch.
You're right. I wonder, in the Netherlands, is it be cheaper to buy weed illegally? That could be an example of there being two coexisting markets - for the legal and illegal distribution of a substance.
Actually I suppose video games are an example of that as well - a legal market still surviving when a cheaper (or free!) illegal market exists.
Quote from: Joe;1435141There is, but using the situation in Nevada as an example, this does not destroy the illegal market.
Right.
Quote from: Joe;1435141Sometimes that's a criticism, but it happens anyway. I think if anything it would make funding more difficult because it would then be considered an accepted activity.
That...I'm not convinced. Drinking alcohol here is an "accepted activity" - but that's different from being an alcoholic.
I'd need actual research to be really convinced either way...but we do put a lot of state money into fighting alcoholism and cigarettes. I suppose I could compare the spending of a "dry county" with a similar area, in terms of money spent on helping alcoholics. My hypothesis would be that the dry county would have not just less support for alcoholics, but additional punishment and societal disapproval.
Edit:
Not only that, but I imagine that if drugs were legalized, you would have less cases of someone not being brought to a hospital or seeking help for fear of arrest.
i say taht would work, as long as the bussiness would be monitored, in order to be kept safe, and be chekced, as it would be legal bussiness.
still, the taxes, should be lower than the usual tax on other bussiness, and then, they should have high price in order to maintain their work. also the illegally done jobs should be also monitored, or at least tried to be rdeuced by theo ffer of legalising, or at least monitoring on helath safety, and/or check in the way the sys. is acting to see is there is major abuse.
in other words, they should legalise drugs, and maybe prostitution, because it could make a safe system for those who wouldl ike no danger of being imrpisoned or chased(at least for using drugs or hookers) and not approach a hospital or a place to get help, in fear of imprisonment?
Quote from: Zombie Lincoln;1435146Actually I suppose video games are an example of that as well - a legal market still surviving when a cheaper (or free!) illegal market exists.
I'm not sure about that. Piracy has been taking a toll on PC gaming for a while. Not that I follow whats going on with the gaming industry that closely. Someone like rupee could probably give you some hard figures about that.
Quote from: Zombie Lincoln;1435146That...I'm not convinced. Drinking alcohol here is an "accepted activity" - but that's different from being an alcoholic
This is true, but alcohol is a little unique in the fact that while its identified as a clear problem we can't do much about it since its so deeply sewn into our culture.
Quote from: Joe;1435174This is true, but alcohol is a little unique in the fact that while its identified as a clear problem we can't do much about it since its so deeply sewn into our culture.
Except start another prohibition.
See?
Are we better off with legal or illegal alcohol?
Are we better off with legal or illegal sexual solicitation?
vice, versa, etc, whateva.