Clock Crew

http://www.deredactie.be/permalink/1.753091 (2 minute clip)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik (full 34 min video)

This shows how US attack choppers attack and kill several Iraqi civilians and 2 Reuters reporters.

This is fucking disgusting and if I were an American I'd be fucking ashamed right now.

Say, i wonder why al-Qaeda bomb us? We don't do anything in the slightest to them!!

War in Iraq?

more like Gay-guy Attack AMIRITE?!?!?

They also shot up the two children in the black van when they shot it at the end of the clip and just went "Welp you shouldn't bring your kids in a war"

Goddammit

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743096I was already ashamed of our War in Iraq

Ditto

We're the bad guys in this war, in years to come they'll be Iraqi war movies showing how we oppressed the middle east.
Oh wait, America's still depicted as heroes of the Vietnam war. Nevermind.

Saving the youtube vid incase it goes down.

the worst thing is that I'm not surprised at all.

Quote from: Slurpee;1743112the worst thing is that I'm not surprised at all.

:this:


Well, I'm a little surprised, but still terribly disgusted.

And that's why I'm happy to be Canadian!

The worst part is that they didn't have nuke turned on. The moment they got chopper gunner they were pretty much assured of a 25 kills streak.

How dare they kill people in a war!

Quote from: Mr. Super Awesome Man;1743116How dare they kill people in a war!

the entire combat portion of this war has been the military equivalent of a cop pointing at a black guy, shouting "gun!" and then shooting him

alternative comment:how about I go to war with your mom to liberate your mom from tyranny and then open fire on her and a room full of people including reporters and children and then lie about it

s

It's ok most reporters are scum anyway Slurpee. And so is SlashClock's mom.

Quote from: Comic Book Guy;1743114And that's why I'm happy to be Canadian!

Fuck off, we knew. We knew everything, we were right next door, and what did we do to stop it? We don't have much in the way of military, but our government could have at least intervened diplomatically beyond the obligatory "Uh, guys, isn't bin Laden supposed to be in Afghanistan?" We're as guilty as the Americans.

Quote from: UshankaClock;1743098Say, i wonder why al-Qaeda bomb us? We don't do anything in the slightest to them!!

I get where you're coming from with this, but from what I understand, the primary reason that al-Qaeda hates America is that it's powerful and not an Islamic theocracy. The bombings and child-killings don't help their perception of America, of course.

Quote from: Slurpee;1743117the entire combat portion of this war has been the military equivalent of a cop pointing at a black guy, shouting "gun!" and then shooting him

Wasn't that the way the entire war started in the first place?

maybe you kill 10 innocent people, maybe you prevent terrorists from killing many more.
who's to say?
It's a war, so if someone is suspicious, you kill him.

Quotealternative comment:how about I go to war with your mom to liberate your mom from tyranny and then open fire on her and a room full of people including reporters and children and then lie about it

Alternative reply: cute

Quote from: Mr. Super Awesome Man;1743122maybe you kill 10 innocent people, maybe you prevent terrorists from killing many more.
who's to say?
It's a war, so if someone is suspicious, you kill him.

It's a war! Everything's ok because it's a war! Morality, you say? Compassion? Fie on compassion! It's a war! It's perfectly acceptable to throw away every shred of human decency because it's a war! I was really worried there for a second, but you sure cleared things up. TROLL.

nope, i take that all back. It's just really, really messed up.

Quote from: CAPTAIN CONDOM;1743124It's a war! Everything's ok because it's a war! Morality, you say? Compassion? Fie on compassion! It's a war! It's perfectly acceptable to throw away every shred of human decency because it's a war! I was really worried there for a second, but you sure cleared things up. TROLL.

Are we supposed to replace all bullets with paint ball bullets then and expect soldiers to fall down and pretend to be dead until the war is over?
Or maybe soldiers should wear big glowing arrows on their helmets in their teams colour.

Quote from: Mr. Super Awesome Man;1743127Are we supposed to replace all bullets with paint ball bullets then and expect soldiers to fall down and pretend to be dead until the war is over?

You're really obvious.

That aside, yes, you kill the enemy soldiers, but the issue here is that America has been going for the civilians. It's supposed to be in there for the benefit of the Iraqi people, and it's turned the place into its own personal shooting range.

This shit about shooting whoever looks suspicious reeks of McCarthyism.

Hate to play Devil's advocate, bu if you're a chopper pilot, you get called in for air support by your guys a few blocks away, and then you see some guy with a huge-ass thingy on his shoulder pointed right at one of your humvees, what do you do?

Quote from: Mr. Super Awesome Man;1743122Wasn't that the way the entire war started in the first place?

can you draw the conclusions from that yourself or do you need me to do it for you

Quote from: RadioTubeClock;1743130wait what

One does not care to acknowledge the mistakes one one's past. I guess the US media doesn't want to admit that for all intents and purposes, we got beat by a bunch of guys in black pajamas.

Quote from: Wind-up Clock;1743129Hate to play Devil's advocate, bu if you're a chopper pilot, you get called in for air support by your guys a few blocks away, and then you see some guy with a huge-ass thingy on his shoulder pointed right at one of your humvees, what do you do?

That's different. That wasn't the only time a civilian got killed, and you know it.

EDIT: Sorry, when I posted that I thought you were Slash.

Quote from: CAPTAIN CONDOM;1743134That's different. That wasn't the only time a civilian got killed, and you know it.

I believe that's the context of the video in question. Chopper pilots get called in for fire support, and they see these guys.

What really gets me is how they sound when they're doing it.

Quote from: Wind-up Clock;1743129Hate to play Devil's advocate, bu if you're a chopper pilot, you get called in for air support by your guys a few blocks away, and then you see some guy with a huge-ass thingy on his shoulder pointed right at one of your humvees, what do you do?

well obviously I shoot 30mm bullets from my helicopter into everything that moves, laugh when I hit a guy, audibly hope for a man crawling on the ground to reach for a weapon so I can shoot him, and then when a vehicle shows up to pick up the bodies, also shoot that, and then show no remorse when it turns out I've mauled a child

but I expect higher standards from our men in uniform.

Quote from: Slurpee;1743136well obviously I shoot 30mm bullets from my helicopter into everything that moves, laugh when I hit a guy, audibly hope for a man crawling on the ground to reach for a weapon so I can shoot him, and then when a vehicle shows up to pick up the bodies, also shoot that, and then show no remorse when it turns out I've mauled a child

but I expect higher standards from our men in uniform.

And you have to do this day after day after day after day after day.....

I'm not really surprised that any of this has happenned. From what I hear a lot of a soldiers morals go out the window after so much combat. Not so much that they are bad people but the combat fucks with them.
I remember reading an article by a reporter attached to the recon company at the head of the invasion of Iraq. There was a point where a guy killed some children thinking they were terrorists at first. In the end they got brought in for medical assistance and the reporter got to see them die horribly. He stated that he feels more safe knowing the soldier is a good shot since those kids were so small and so far.
It's all really fucked up but that's just the way things are.

the u.s. military is part of our national identity.
they're there because the officials we elected put them there, they are paid for with our tax dollars, and our rock bands produce music videos about them rebuilding houses with dale earndhart jr, and stopping tanks to give soccer balls to little brown kids.

when the diplomatic side of things clearly fingers us as an invading force, it falls on the military to not act like fuckheads- we're not going to come out of this clean, but we could at least not come out of it as complete monsters.

so when we have to brook this picture of the military as a big group of scumbags, engaging in and covering up shooting children and pregnant women, bombing schools and hospitals, kicking puppies off cliffs, and waiting, just waiting, for official protocol to justify the gleeful slaughtering of unengaged forces, it hurts, because that's us out there, doing these terrible things.

if you can resolve that cognitive dissonance by waving your hand and saying that's war, more power to you, but personally I'm at least gonna have to spend some time feeling bad about this

this is horrible fucking pigs army copter cunts.

how can they kill a kid and just shurg and be like oh well.
:S

Quote from: Moltor;1743144this is horrible fucking pigs army copter cunts.

how can they kill a kid and just shurg and be like oh well.
:S

War does screwy things to one's mind.

Unless you've been in Iraq or Afghanistan, you really have no idea what you're talking about as what you know and seen has been from a media outlet. Not defending or opposing the shooting, just saying shut up.

Quote from: CAPTAIN CONDOM;1743121I get where you're coming from with this, but from what I understand, the primary reason that al-Qaeda hates America is that it's powerful and not an Islamic theocracy. The bombings and child-killings don't help their perception of America, of course.

It gives people a reason to join terrorist groups though, we (America and Britain collectively) basically rattle everyone's cage and expect nothing to come of it, while we're basically digging our own graves.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743162Unless you've been in Iraq or Afghanistan, you really have no idea what you're talking about as what you know and seen has been from a media outlet. Not defending or opposing the shooting, just saying shut up.

what is your opinion about this matter?

Quote from: RadioTubeClock;1743130wait what

It was a civil war America had no part in, but as soon as they learned COMMUNISM was involved, they jumped straight in.
WORLD POLICE

Quote from: Moltor;1743170what is your opinion about this matter?

I'm half and half on it really - being that it was 2007 when things were really bad, and from what I saw their cameras could easily have been mistaken for AK47's I understand why they were engaged. But I think their judgment was wrong and should have called in a quick reaction force given the number of targets and proximity to civilians. So in short, I think they fucked up and were very callous on the issue. Should they go to jail, no, should they be allowed to fly for the military ever again, no.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743175I'm half and half on it really - being that it was 2007 when things were really bad, and from what I saw their cameras could easily have been mistaken for AK47's I understand why they were engaged. But I think their judgment was wrong and should have called in a quick reaction force given the number of targets and proximity to civilians. So in short, I think they fucked up and were very callous on the issue. Should they go to jail, no, should they be allowed to fly for the military ever again, no.

:this: a soldier's point of view. :army:

Quote from: UshankaClock;1743178:this: a soldier's point of view. :army:

Actually I'm a civilian when I go over there, and I understand the risks when I go there. I stand a chance of being shot by the military if I carry around objects that look like weapons while talking on cell phones. That is probable cause over there.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743185Actually I'm a civilian when I go over there, and I understand the risks when I go there. I stand a chance of being shot by the military if I carry around objects that look like weapons while talking on cell phones. That is probable cause over there.

Well i fucked that right up :P

Quote from: CAPTAIN CONDOM;1743124It's a war! Everything's ok because it's a war! Morality, you say? Compassion? Fie on compassion! It's a war! It's perfectly acceptable to throw away every shred of human decency because it's a war! I was really worried there for a second, but you sure cleared things up. TROLL.

 

Every time i see an OpalClock post my day gets slightly shittier.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743197If soldiers are so afraid of losing their lives that they will shoot people for looking like they might be hostile, then they shouldn't be the ones holding the guns. They should take desk jobs or maybe not join the military at all.

In war people that look hostile are generally hostile. When you think someone has a gun and a cell phone they're probably coordinating an attack.

QuoteEvery civilian we kill extends the conflict, makes the war worse, breeds more hatred and gives more of a claim to justification to our enemies.

And what's more, it's killing an innocent person for something trivial. Isn't that kind of what we go to war to keep from happening in the first place? Then the last thing in the WORLD that we should be doing is the exact thing we go over there to KEEP from happening.

That is what happens in war, which is why war sucks.

QuoteAnd I'm aware that I'm not a soldier, and there's a reason for that. But I am a student of history, and that "it's war" excuse has been used for so long it's amazing no one's learned the lesson yet.

It's not an excuse, it's a reality. War is not logical or kind, and should only be used as a last resort. I disagree with the war in Iraq, preemptive strikes rarely work, and preemptive strikes on nations never work.

not the first time air support has fucked up when these conflicts were starting americans attacked a squad of canadians in afghanistan killing two or three of us, maybe more, i don't even think that made the news in the states.

yeah the fuckin idiots dropped a laser guided missile on our boys like jesus fucking christ.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/

Quote from: PEYOTE;1743210yeah the fuckin idiots dropped a laser guided missile on our boys like jesus fucking christ.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/

Nah, it was in the news for about a week or two.  Not as much as it should have been, though, but it got covered.

Quote from: Mr. Super Awesome Man;1743116How dare they kill people in a war!

Don't worry, they're not people.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743203And if they're not, and you shoot them, then you've just taken an innocent life.

The Barbara Bush defense. Summing it up with "yeah war's shitty but what you gonna do?" isn't an answer for why not to do the right thing.

Pretending there is no choice in the matter when there is is an excuse. The alternative is to take the additional risk to yourself and the men who volunteered to take such a risk in order to not face the odds of slaughtering innocents who have no say in what risks they are subjected to for simply being born in the wrong part of the world.

Did you only read half of what I wrote? Saying war sucks is like saying shit stinks. I'm not defending war, I'm just saying it sucks. Innocent people will die in war regardless of what you do. Bad guys and innocents look exactly the same, it's just the way it is. I don't think those reporters should have died because we should have never have been in Iraq, but there it is anyways.

EDIT: Nevermind, I don't know why I'm trying to explain this, you're a troll.

Quote from: Hannah Montana;1743248I still blame Rabid

me too

Corpse, you're trying to make war into something it isn't. In a perfect world I'm sure we could make an omelet without breaking eggs, but here in the real world, you have to. In war people die, good, bad or otherwise. Those pilots engaged with probable cause because cameras on slings look just like guns on slings. They requested permission and used their best judgment, they were technically correct. Seriously, we've come so far with minimizing collateral damage in war it's not even funny. Before we would just wipe out entire sections of cities with bombing runs, now we keep it down to a single building or even a single room out of a building.

Full report has been leaked as well: http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Death%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists/6--2nd%20Brigade%20Combat%20Team%2015-6%20Investigation.pdf

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743102I never quite understood how people in Iraq are fighting for my freedom if Iraq never threatened my freedom in the first place :S

Money Money Money Money

It is disgusting, isn't it?

Kind of makes you want to line up some senators and pop em.

Quote from: UshankaClock;1743103We're the bad guys in this war, in years to come they'll be Iraqi war movies showing how we oppressed the middle east.
Oh wait, America's still depicted as heroes of the Vietnam war. Nevermind.

Don't be stupid, try finding anyone under 60 who thought Vietnam was a good idea.

Reading the after actions report since the team that came across the bodies did come across RPG rounds and AK47 rifles. They might not have been as innocent as everybody thinks, and if they were, then they were very stupid to be near an approaching unit with those RPGs.

Corpse, I never said it was right for innocent people to die, I just think it's stupid to expect anything less in a war. Of course things could be improved, but at this time we don't have that capability. You have to admit we are improving civilian casualties from military engagements drastically compared to what it was 50 years ago. Things will continue to improve, but we have to be realistic.

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743289In my opinion, war is the most childish thing the adult population of the world engages in. If not, then it's in the top 3.

I absolutely agree Golden, war is a terrible thing that not only affects innocents, but the ones forced to fight in them too.

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743296I have never personally seen combat, of course, only seeing from the media and from recently reading All Quiet on the Western Front. That is bad enough for me as it is, so I couldn't imagine witnessing and engaging in it firsthand. I'm particularly glad I was encouraged never to go into the military.

Nothing wrong with not seeing combat, I wish nobody ever had to see it. The military primarily preys on poor kids that can't afford college. That's how they got me, promised me glory and college and instead got a war (I joined up before 9/11 and got out in 2007).

Quote from: RibsClock;1743301Step 1: put in place a policy forbidding opening fire on individuals who are not clearly hostile, and having dire consequences for individuals responsible for making calls that cause the deaths of innocent people.

Yeah, and I'm assuming that this thread is about this thread, so in this case they did show evidence of hostility, and indeed they found weapons among the casualties. So they did Step 1. You can't simply fire on a target without going through a checklist. You can't shoot someone for having an AK 47, but you can shoot at someone with an AK 47 acting suspicious when a combat unit is approaching, and aiming a device at them.

Trust me, it would have been much bigger if we went up and invaded Japan instead of bombing it. So many people were willing to fight to the death.

Quote from: CAPTAIN CONDOM;1743124It's a war! Everything's ok because it's a war! Morality, you say? Compassion? Fie on compassion! It's a war! It's perfectly acceptable to throw away every shred of human decency because it's a war! I was really worried there for a second, but you sure cleared things up.

When it comes to debating humanity, I'll be the last guy arguing for altruism and utilitarianism, but I have to say that in war it's not so much morality as psychology. In a setting like this, where you're given lots of power with little direction, a mob rule takes over, and *mentally, anyhow) a diffusion of responsibility occurs (especially in large groups). I studied deindividualisation last year, and if I got one thing out of it it was that fear and confusion outweigh logic and compassion.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743309And it would have been much smaller if we went with a war of attrition considering at the end of the war we had total and complete air superiority and instead just basically kept them from building any factories, especially considering at the end we had close access through mainland China and the Soviet Union giving support from their military.

Like with Viet Nam?

Additionally, our perception of war at the time was entirely different, and the military generals in Japan (to my understanding) were completely and utterly willing to continue the fight, even if it meant certaindefeat. In fact it was one of the only times in Japanese history the emperor had to force them to stop fighting, even after the bombs were dropped.

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743296I have never personally seen combat, of course, only seeing from the media and from recently reading All Quiet on the Western Front

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743308Furthermore, I can't stand it when war is glorified and made into something to be wonderful.

Its like the book is posting on the forum!!!

Much worse things have happened as a direct result of american ignorance.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743331Greater ignorance somewhere doesn't excuse lesser ignorance elsewhere.

I'm not big on shedding crocodile tears, personally. For them it's kill or be killed, in the same circumstances you and I probably would've made the same call.

I see both rabids and ribs point of view. Realistically, it would be foolish to expect better in todays war it seems (doesn't seem like many were particularly surprised by this video). Idealistically, and I prefer this way of thinking, we should not merely accept the state of war as it is now. We should always, in anything, aim for the ideal way to do it. Nobody ever moves forward by being a 'realist' and basically accepting the shit that we has as 'just the way it is' or something similar.

The fact is that in an ideal war (if war can ever be ideal at all, let's be clear i'm opposed to it entirely), we can do better than this, it is the right thing to do. and so we should do better than this, because that is ideal


EDIT: there seems to be a slight lack in human compassion in this thread.

I know it's a dated argument but imagine if just one person in your family were killed during war. That horrific fact could ruin you're entire life, make you feel pain like you've never imagined. We cannot just write off even one death because it is during war, that death not only ended the life of the person in question but will have amazing emotional ramifications or anyone that knew them.

I know it's terribly idealistic of me, but if a civilian has no right to kill another man, neither should any government.
but I digress, that's just my hatred of war

The only thing war is good for is video games

I blame obama, he's president right now right?

yep. His fault.

Quote from: Ram.;1743346The only thing war is good for is video games

I'd agree
 
Also
 
Just to bring this wild discussion back to focus a bit...
 

This is not saying it wasn't suspicious but,
 
In the video, as soon as the first cameraman lifts his camera to take pictures, the helicopter pilots go nuts trying to engage and annihilate everything in the area and anything that entered the area. Even from the semi-clear apache footage, you can see that no shots were being fired let alone RPG fire was coming from the group with the cameramen.
 
There may have been insurgents with the reuters guys, but they weren't acting any more hostile than the unarmed civilians in the group.
 

Whenever cameramen start taking pictures apparently people gather to see, whenever people gather the U.S. opens fire. It looks like a few of the people who gathered were actually armed, but they weren't acting hostile or suspicious. If the U.S. unit was really under fire as they said, wouldn't the ground forces report the position of the attackers and the chopper take that location as priority?
 
I think the main point of this article/reveal/every journalist/blogger's raging boner is not only to show trigger happy U.S. military hitting civilians (you have to admit media loves lapping that kind of story up) and laughing about it, but just to have the proof that the military vehemently lied about it. Woop dee doo for those who hate the U.S. military.

Well, you can't say killing civilians is a good thing or no big deal

Quote from: Ram.;1743354Well, you can't say killing civilians is a good thing or no big deal

Yeah that just adds to the flame

You guys really have no idea how operations work, its like listening to a bunch of elementary students arguing over the collapse of the economy. You have about 1 part of 10 of the over all picture and you're attempting to draw conclusions. Apache pilots do not have 1280x800 monitors, they have tiny lcd screens. And unlike video games, you cannot see rounds being fired unless they're really really big.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743367You guys really have no idea how operations work, its like listening to a bunch of elementary students arguing over the collapse of the economy. You have about 1 part of 10 of the over all picture and you're attempting to draw conclusions. Apache pilots do not have 1280x800 monitors, they have tiny lcd screens. And unlike video games, you cannot see rounds being fired unless they're really really big.

I fully admit I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But isn't the fact that they can't see very well all the more reason to not open fire on a huge crowd?

And I'd be more open to the explanation that war is Hell and this is collateral damage if the troops acted remorseful for shooting children. If they said, "Oh Jesus we shot kids," I wouldn't think nearly so bad of it.

Quote from: Eff Yoo Clawk;1743368I fully admit I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But isn't the fact that they can't see very well all the more reason to not open fire on a huge crowd?

And I'd be more open to the explanation that war is Hell and this is collateral damage if the troops acted remorseful for shooting children. If they said, "Oh Jesus we shot kids," I wouldn't think nearly so bad of it.

No, in a prior post I said they should have called in a QRF with the close proximity of civilians. And chances are those guys were just posturing, I'm certain they cry like little girls every time they drink too much because of what they've done. You have to act callous over there when stuff like that happens or it eats you up and you end up shooting yourself. There's a reason why we have a high suicide rate over there.

Quote from: Golden Clock;1743369I'm smart though right :(

Golden, you're a brilliant, beautiful little girl.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743367You guys really have no idea how operations work, its like listening to a bunch of elementary students arguing over the collapse of the economy. You have about 1 part of 10 of the over all picture and you're attempting to draw conclusions. Apache pilots do not have 1280x800 monitors, they have tiny lcd screens. And unlike video games, you cannot see rounds being fired unless they're really really big.

If they can't see that well then why did they say that the "insurgents" were firing. It was the apache pilots that drew the conclusion that it was an rpg, and said that the insurgents were firing. The ground forces didn't report fire, but they still gave the permission to engage.
 
Actually, if they can't see, then why are they calling the shots, or firing at all? In this CNN video analysis , a retired U.S. military brigadier general comments that the zooming lense is very high powered and their equipment is designed for high precision viewing. Doesn't the best military in the world have the best equipment?
 
They drew conclusions, and happened to be wrong is all anyone is saying. The fact that they were dicks about it didn't help, and neither did the military lying.
 
I completely understand your point about the stresses of duty, and how different things are in real combat.
 
Also,
 
"I admit I have no idea what I'm talking about"
 
Haven't you played call of duty? Of course you know what you're talking about average citizen!

Quote from: OpalClock;1743371If they can't see that well then why did they say that the "insurgents" were firing. It was the apache pilots that drew the conclusion that it was an rpg, and said that the insurgents were firing. The ground forces didn't report fire, but they still gave the permission to engage.
 
Actually, if they can't see, then why are they calling the shots, or firing at all? In this CNN video analysis , a retired U.S. military brigadier general comments that the zooming lense is very high powered and their equipment is designed for high precision viewing. Doesn't the best military in the world have the best equipment?
 
They drew conclusions, and happened to be wrong is all anyone is saying. The fact that they were dicks about it didn't help, and neither did the military lying.
 
I completely understand your point about the stresses of duty, and how different things are in real combat.
 
Also,
 
"I admit I have no idea what I'm talking about"
 
Haven't you played call of duty? Of course you know what you're talking about average citizen!

OK, well they saw a group of guys with RPGs and AK47s, and saw a guy peek around a corner at an oncoming patrol with a large object pointed at them. Your one of two people keeping an Apache helicopter in the air, and if you wait too long 8 of your people could easily die. What do you do? I personally would have called in a QRF to check it out because thats what you do these days. I don't know if they even had a QRF in that area since it was a COP and not a FOB.

I should also say that the evolution of use of deadly force has dramatically changed since 2007 specifically for reasons such as this.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743367You guys really have no idea how operations work, its like listening to a bunch of elementary students arguing over the collapse of the economy. You have about 1 part of 10 of the over all picture and you're attempting to draw conclusions. Apache pilots do not have 1280x800 monitors, they have tiny lcd screens. And unlike video games, you cannot see rounds being fired unless they're really really big.

Would you rather have us sit here passively instead of have a discussion about it? If even MORE people started to just ignore what they don't understand, I  wouldn't even want to live in this world.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743380Firing into a crowd of people who might or might not have weapons because you might or might not be in danger seems like a way to take a possibility of people dying and turn it into a sure thing.

They did have weapons, there is no might about it.

Quote from: RabidClock;1743372I should also say that the evolution of use of deadly force has dramatically changed since 2007 specifically for reasons such as this.

The big thing they're stressing right now is "positive identification" for every shot.  They have to either demonstrate hostile intent or commit a hostile act against you.  So pretty much you have to wait until they point a weapon before you shoot em.  Your whole squad also has to write up a sworn statement every time you get attacked, so everybody's scared of getting charged for shooting back.  Technically, you're supposed to write up a statement every time you fire off a pin flare, so they're pretty anal about any kind of EOF.  

So yeah they pretty much have us by the balls.  Most of the time if a convoy gets hit, they just push through and maybe shoot back if they have the opportunity.  Then they let QRF (or whoever shows up) handle it if they ever get there on time.  

The desert cowboy era is over, to put it bluntly.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743475In other words, they gambled with other peoples' lives in order to keep from risking their own. And that should not be our policy.

I haven't heard of a modern war without high civilian casualties.  Unfortunately, there's only so much you can do to minimize it.  Yes, I agree that it was a shitty thing that a bunch of civilians got killed, and that they should have just called in QRF to handle it, but non combatants are going to get caught up in the fighting no matter what.  Right now we can get away with being slow to react because the insurgency is running out of firepower and we've got better armor, but if we were like that around 2003-05, we'd have more casualties on our side.

Right now we're just nit picking at details.  Overall, our policy should be not getting involved in unnecessary wars.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743475If we had found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq

What thread are you posting in? The 8 guys that got shot up by the helicopters did have weapons and they were positively identified. It just so happened that two of the people were reporters in the group. Reporters cover both sides of the war, if they're interviewing insurgents then obviously they know they're at high risk.

Quote from: RibsClock;1743481The point is that there's more we can do, and more we should do.

That's a shitty defeatist attitude and I think that basing a policy off of it is what allows us to be apathetic about rampant slaughter.

Just for the record, I'm writing this just to give people a clear picture of what's going on, not because I support the war.

That video was shot in 2007.  It's now 2010, and I can guarantee you that shit doesn't fly anymore.  Personally, our squad has been attacked a couple of times while on mission, and we've yet to return fire because we couldn't identify the bad guys, and randomly spraying machine gun fire might kill innocents.  Like I said before, you have to meticulously document every action you take.  If you shoot a flare or shine a laser pen at a vehicle because it won't stop, you have to write up a report about it.  Hell, if you shine a laser pen at somebody without just cause, you can get demoted for it!  Most soldiers today are scared shitless of doing almost anything because of how hard they crack down on us, so the thought of our guys mowing down innocent civilians is almost laughable.  

 

QuoteSoldiers who signed up to fight a war are a more acceptable casualty than bystanders who did not. There is no two ways about it.

Yes our soldiers should be given the best tools, intel, supplies, care, and training available. But that should be because their job is very hard and involves a huge amount of risk.

If a hundred thousand uninvolved American civilians (more than thirty times what happened at 9/11, mind you) had died in this war, we would be outraged, the outcry would be tremendous, there would be massive change in policy reflecting it, people at the top level of our government might lose elections over it; shit would get done. But with Iraqi civilians, you just get a shitload of third-page news reports and "well there's only so much you can do" and it's utter crap.

You'd rather see me die than an Iraqi?  That's pretty harsh.  I'd rather none of us die by not having a war in the first place.

Remember, I don't support the war anymore than you do.  I'm saying it's impossible to prevent all civilian casualties in a war.  Yes you can rightfully reduce it (as I explained above), but you're not going to have a war where 100% of the deaths are combatants from both sides.  Still, what difference does it make to you in the big picture?  If all the deaths in this war were only American troops and insurgents, would you still support our presence here?

Quote from: RibsClock;1743494You apparently didn't watch the video, because they quite clearly had their sights on the guy holding the camera and incorrectly identified him as holding a weapon, and used that as their basis for the final judgment call before opening fire on the whole crowd. That weapons were found near the other people later is utterly irrelevant and has nothing to do with the fact that they decided to fire on a crowd because they saw a guy holding a camera.

I just wanna throw something else out there.  One of the insurgents' oldest tactics is filming attacks and selling them to Al-Jazeera, which gives them cash and propaganda.  It seems mighty coincidental that somebody decided to film some helicopters when there happened to be weapons nearby that could shoot down said helicopters.

The more you know.

I love how people can identify a troll almost immediately and still feed him for multiple pages

Quote from: ToyotaClock;1743548I love how people can identify a troll almost immediately and still feed him for multiple pages

Yeah only kiddie diddler PEDOPHILES use italicizes for emphasis. Real men use .

If only they did this... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/apr/07/us-forces-fight-taliban-metal)

Quote from: ToyotaClock;1743548I love how people can identify a troll almost immediately and still feed him for multiple pages

Look, I stopped at page 2.

tl;dr war is bad

I'm glad that we could extrapolate this radical new conclusion from the extended debates in this thread.

Quote from: Liser;1743781tl;dr war is bad

I'm glad that we could extrapolate this radical new conclusion from the extended debates in this thread.

Indeed, indeed, this is some new thinking right here.

So basically when a helicopter shoots at a building, you should avoid the area because they are going to shoot it a few more times? I feel sorry for all the people who came looking at the building that they shot hellfires at because they got exploded into bits

Quote from: BunnyClock;1743863So basically when a helicopter shoots at a building, you should avoid the area because they are going to shoot it a few more times? I feel sorry for all the people who came looking at the building that they shot hellfires at because they got exploded into bits

You should avoid the area anyway because the building may collapse.
Leave rescues to firemen.

Quote from: Topcatyo;1743609If only they did this...

hahaha what a great idea

Quote from: Topcatyo;1743609If only they did this...

QuoteSoldiers may not be DJing in Marjah for much longer. "It's inappropriate," said lieutenant colonel Brian Christmas, the commander of marines in northern Marjah. Christmas claimed he had not heard of (or heard) the audio attacks. "I'm going to ask this to stop right now."

Yes, because killing people is so much better. :rolleyes:

War in Iraq america bombs and helicopters war in iraq with hostile civilians war Iraq innocent people bombs and helicopters war with hostile civilians with innocent Iraq wikileaks disgusting war with helicopters and hostile innocent bombs in iraq shooting hostile helicopters america america bombs iraq innocent civilians war shooting bombs hostile helicopters in iraq.

Looks like I'm in here too late to make a lame cockjoke.

Still, the footage is pretty horrible. But I found the facts of war shoved in my face more troubling than what actually happened. Sure, I know shit like this happens in war ( absolutely not justifying this ), but not witnessing it and being here in safe Europe is such a luxary. I realize it enough.

Quote from: CAPTAIN CONDOM;1743121I get where you're coming from with this, but from what I understand, the primary reason that al-Qaeda hates America is that it's powerful and not an Islamic theocracy. The bombings and child-killings don't help their perception of America, of course.

ermm,,,actual;ly alqaeda has staatedn on numnerus occasions thatt theiir attacks on amerikan natiion are motivaated by ammerican foreighn policy facillitating GENOCIDE on arabic peoples but i cna see how u wuold not kno that on acount of beeing a GINGANTIC FUKCING MORON

jjeet chrisxt

Quote from: DBZ_kRiLiN_43985 clock;1744529ermm,,,actual;ly alqaeda has staatedn on numnerus occasions thatt theiir attacks on amerikan natiion are motivaated by ammerican foreighn policy facillitating GENOCIDE on arabic peoples but i cna see how u wuold not kno that on acount of beeing a GINGANTIC FUKCING MORON

*looks in ohter dirrection, tlaks in squekey voice* oi agree w/ htis man !

Quote from: DBZ_kRiLiN_43985 clock;1744666*looks in ohter dirrection, tlaks in squekey voice* oi agree w/ htis man !

So what exactly do you guys propose soldiers do when they see some dudes who aren't with them strolling down the street with AKs and a grenade launcher? Cause they had those things. Also the reporters not only weren't embedded with a unit but the military didn't have their location.

Listen to that radio chatter. What you hear in their voices is fear of death. Living in a war zone for a while will do that to you. Oh, and there were shots fired nearby shortly before this.


And Corpse, really? Did you watch the video? There are people holding 2 AKs up in the air. They are clearly heavily armed. They are not affiliated with the US military. This means they are enemy combatants. Rules of engagement dictate that they would be safe if they dropped their weapons and indicated surrender. They did not do this. Civilians are not supposed to be armed in a war zone, this is for their own safety.

Also, I just lost a ton of respect for Wikileaks. Way to not handle this with journalistic integrity. They're already having trouble with hosting, I wouldn't be surprised if they shut down after this.

lmao if u think unarmed grouppe of ppl standing in midle of street r "enemy combatants"

We just like killin' things.
 
It's the American way.

Quote from: SheepClock;1744717We just like picking fights.
 
It's the American way.

Look, I'm just saying if I saw you guys in the street with a camera, I'd probably shoot you and gloat too.
They shouldn't have been camping in the first place. Fucking newbs.

Quote from: RabidClock;1744774Look, I'm just saying if I saw you guys in the street with a camera, I'd probably shoot you and gloat too.
They shouldn't have been camping in the first place. Fucking newbs.

not before we snapshot you~

/lamejoke

this is a long thread and i havent read any of it so im posting now

Quote from: GodClock;1744803this is a long thread and i havent read any of it so im posting now

this is a long thread and I've read the whole thing but I'm only posting now because you posted hi godclock how are things

Quote from: FloundermanClock;1744806this is a long thread and I've read the whole thing but I'm only posting now because you posted hi godclock how are things

You know, I've read the manga that is your avatar. It was strange.

(https://clockcrew.net/talk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2Favg1n8.jpg&hash=f011d651482dc0cc06168a7e6841da7a9812730f)

What manga is that?

Quote from: FloundermanClock;1744806this is a long thread and I've read the whole thing but I'm only posting now because you posted hi godclock how are things

hey flounderman everything is p swell i must say, and how is the wife?