Clock Crew

For as long as I can remember the general populace of the Clock Crew has been ignorant of the happenings of the Grid. Sometimes, this is with good reason, to keep a surprise under wraps or discuss something that could become explosive if it got out to the public at the moment. Much of the time, though, there's really no reason why the community shouldn't be able to see what's going on in there. Transparency is good. If we're electing staff, we ought tto have our own sort of CSPAN, so I propose the following.

Threads in the Grid, after a period of time, are moved to a Public Grid Archive visible to all members. Certain threads, like secret planning of things like an April Fool's joke or something similar that the staff wants to spring on everyone as a surprise, can be categorized as Secret and are exempt from being moved to the Public Archive. This is done by a staff vote in which a 2/3 majority is required to keep it hidden (in order to avoid factionalization and hiding of sensitive threads within the staff).  The specific period, being being between perhaps 2 weeks and a month or so (to be determined by the staff at their convenience), once the activity of the thread is over and any other concerns are out of the way.

Yea or Nay?

Also anyone who votes impulsively on this one way or another I swear to fuck I will come to your house and sell your kidneys to the Mexican drug cartels. Let the arguments play out for a little bit. We got two weeks to decide on these things folks.

can i vote

i voted

Is there some particular reason why you think this is a bad idea?

Because everyone will find out what an asshole he is.

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1861160Because everyone will find out what an asshole he is.

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Quote from: AbsintheClock;1861160Because everyone will find out what an asshole he is.

no i actually would love for my posts to be visible to everyone and i almost voted yes because i don't want to deprive everyone of their comedic value

can you just, like, keep the grid closed but release a volume of my posts every month?  make it a big event.

Would having a second, more clandestine grid promote transparency, or would it just be where all the threads went? I proposed having a waiting period because it would be better for people to see whole conversations than to pop in from time to time and view parts of them while they're actually happening. It would limit jumping to conclusions in favor of viewing the totality of the discussion.

As far as voting on things goes, the only time the staff has to vote is to make something secret, and it's a 2/3 vote rather than a simple majority so a small faction can't just go removing things from the public record. I would hope every thread doesn't need to have someone coming forward and insisting on a secrecy vote, because most threads shouldn't have to be secret.

If we're electing staff members, people need to know what those members are contributing to the staff. That's not going to happen if they hide their opinions from everyone. If you don't have the confidence to make your argument publicly, maybe you shouldn't be making it at all.

i voted yes because i think a lot of people (me included) would like to see what you guys are doing and what you are discussing

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1861181Would having a second, more clandestine grid promote transparency, or would it just be where all the threads went?

I think the majority of threads would not end up there. I'm just suggesting we sort threads into separate forums beforehand, rather than figuring it out afterword.

What if the clandestine grid threads would also become public, but have a much longer delay than the regular grid? Like 6 months to a year?

Quote from: RenegadeClock;1861243I think the majority of threads would not end up there. I'm just suggesting we sort threads into separate forums beforehand, rather than figuring it out afterword.

What if the clandestine grid threads would also become public, but have a much longer delay than the regular grid? Like 6 months to a year?

That's perfectly fine with me, though a year might be a bit long unless the situation really calls for it. I just want people to know who they're voting for by the time the next election comes around. Protecting people on the staff's feelings is nice and all, but I think it's more important that we have an accurate representation of what people are actually saying and doing. If there's no accountability or real public  knowledge of who takes what position in what discussions and how they conduct themselves, we can't vote meaningfully on who should take part in that decision-making process.

If there were a hidden second grid, I think there ought to be transparent, publicly-visible guidelines for what sort of thing does and doesn't belong in that forum.  I also think, if we're going to be viewing a live grid, it might be advisable to have a sort of meta-grid for user discussion of what's going on. Part of why I thought it would be a good idea to have an archive with posts after the fact is that you can see the whole discussion, from start to finish, not just an incomplete process. A discussion forum pertaining to discussions occurring in the grid should probably exist either way, but would be even more important if we aren't getting the whole finished thread at once.

I voted yes because I do agree with need to have some amount of what goes on in the grid public.  Gotta know what the guys you voted for are doing.

I also agree that we should do a system other than just putting every thread out to the public because, as Renegade said, the staff would probably end up watching not being totally honest about their opinions since they know everyone will see what they're saying eventually.

Really it's a dodgy issue. I voted yes because I do want some accountability but I don't think we should go about it the way suggested.

Quote from: Topcatyo;1861262I also agree that we should do a system other than just putting every thread out to the public because, as Renegade said, the staff would probably end up watching not being totally honest about their opinions since they know everyone will see what they're saying eventually.

I take issue with this. If your opinions are really that bad, the people who voted for you should know. We ought to have a right to know who we've elected and how they act. They may want to have a public face that differs from their actual one, but that's dishonest, so we shouldn't be setting up the system to assist them in that. The entire point is to see who is worth their salt and who isn't. Otherwise it's nothing but a popularity contest.

If we declassify the grid I want the entire history of the grid on display. Not just the threads made recently.

Quote from: FloundermanClock;1861277If we declassify the grid I want the entire history of the grid on display. Not just the threads made recently.

This is a capital idea.

I voted no for the reasons Renegade stated (via White). If I am a staff member and we're voting on a contest, or evaluating people for position, or discussing specific members for whatever reason, I would want to feel free to voice my opinion about them without knowing that they may be offended by them at some point in the near future.

Even if I was saying something that a third party might not see as offensive, the person in question could still be hurt by it. Example: We're discussing adding a new mod and I say "Sage is an alright guy and all, but I don't think he posts enough." That's not very offensive, especially if it's true, but Sage might still feel bad that I didn't stick up for him and his abilities. I've never been the kind of person who likes to make people feel bad, so knowing that my opinion would later become public I'd be far less inclined to share my true feelings.

And I don't necessarily believe that just because I have that opinion means that I should want it to be public. I may, yes. There may be an open discussion about the candidates in which I say "Sage doesn't post enough." But that's my decision to post that. If there is no staff forum to discuss things more openly in, I would just keep all of my opinions to myself and only contribute by voting on a poll.

And, finally, I really don't see what would be so pressing or valuable about it other than to satisfy curiosity. There isn't some terribly important and urgent event happening that requires such transparency.

I don't need to see it, feel free to talk about me behind my back whenever you want in there.

Contests and voting threads should obviously be exempt.

I do need to see it, however I think this can all be sorted out by giving me grid access and Smod status.

I voted No. But I assume people who never had grid access will just vote yes and itll pass anyway

Despite my longstanding desire to see what goes on in the grid, I side with the ideology that complete transparency would not do good things for the group.

Voted no. Keep the Grid as is.

EDIT: I'm dumb and didn't notice this was a two page thread. I thought Asshat's post was the first post and voted no. Now that I actually read the thread I would like to change my vote to yes :>

Quote from: clammo;1861480voted yes because everybody whined about making the grid public when i was admin

As long as PAST grid threads aren't put in the public archive. The anti-trangle stuff is tiresome enough already without giving them pages more ammunition.

People aren't jumping on every single thing the staff does, Corpsegrinder, they're jumping on most of the things you do.

Albino, come on.

I voted yes but on second thought I'm not that crazy about it now. The grid is private for a reason, and even if time passes, these topics should be kept private.

What I don't understand though is how often I hear people talk about grid access that are not on the staff. What is that about?

Quote from: HeinekenClock;1861582Albino, come on.

It's true. I've yet to see any criticism of any other staff member.


Why does it need to be private? So that when people disagree with what people are doing or saying they don't have the opportunity to speak up about it? What the hell is that?

I've been criticized, and I've also gotten complaints about other staff members too. The more stuff you do as a staff member the more folks are going to take issue with you.

Still holding my vote for several reasons. One is that although I've supported more transparent staff discussion for as long as I've known about the grid, this type of change would take a lot of effort to implement and it'd also require more staff effort to maintain. I think that although staff positions are voluntary, it's important for us to remember that no one is being paid, that all our staff still has a life outside the crew (which means managing time spent on CC) and that the more we bog them down with bureaucratic shit, the less time they have to spend on actual decision making.

Quote from: RenegadeClock;1861243I think the majority of threads would not end up there. I'm just suggesting we sort threads into separate forums beforehand, rather than figuring it out afterword.

What if the clandestine grid threads would also become public, but have a much longer delay than the regular grid? Like 6 months to a year?

I think it'd be fine to delay threads that need to stay hidden for a while such as surprise changes/ contests for the forums, proposed NG antics etc. But then again some of these things, such as NG antics, would probably be better suited for a forum similar to our old green door. Or maybe we could just repurpose the clock crew collabs forum, who knows.
 

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1861257I just want people to know who they're voting for by the time the next election comes around. Protecting people on the staff's feelings is nice and all, but I think it's more important that we have an accurate representation of what people are actually saying and doing. If there's no accountability or real public  knowledge of who takes what position in what discussions and how they conduct themselves, we can't vote meaningfully on who should take part in that decision-making process.

I agree that a democratic election system is pretty arbitrary if we can't see the majority of our staff members' decisions or their grid voting practices. Honestly I don't think the staff should be worrying too much about popularity. We put them there because we believed they were responsible or capable of getting work done, not because we liked them personally (I hope). I think Slurpee has probably? banned me more times than any other staff member but I still gave him my admin vote because he always banned fairly and I think he genuinely demonstrated that he cared about improving the crew last time he was admin.

Quote from: HeinekenClock;1861582What I don't understand though is how often I hear people talk about grid access that are not on the staff. What is that about?

I think, at least in the past, non-staff members judged important enough to have their opinions voiced in the grid have been given access. Some of them went on to become staff at some point or another.
 

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1861604I've been criticized, and I've also gotten complaints about other staff members too. The more stuff you do as a staff member the more folks are going to take issue with you.

Like I said earlier, I think it's important that clocks vote with their head and not their heart. If a mod only bans justly and fairly, and works to better the crew during his time on the staff, he should win over a more popular clock who didn't really do anything with their moderation.

I agree that the grid should not be public and should be only be accessed by moderators, administration and advisors.  If there were to be complete access to the grid, there is a good chance it would backfire. This could easily open the door for more possible infighting, nitpicking and backseat modding. In the end, instead of more transparency, the decisions would be made through other modes of communication.

The cc has already come a long way in terms of electing moderators and being more opened with changes and this policy forum. None of this was around back in the original .com or .cc. I'd rather work hard, be more of a forum regular and contribute more to the site in order to have access to the grid.

Quote from: RibsClock;1861756Uh actually you will be able to, that's what the record of Staff motions is for.

Well then implement that already!

But really, I don't need grid access, I've seen you guys bitch at each other debate in the forums, I doubt it's any more civilized in the grid. I'd hate for you guys to feel the need to temper down in order to make anything more palpable to the public.

Besides, I'm rather not feel like I have to read 10 pages of Ribs and Grey going at it.

For the Grid to go public (even if view only) would defeat the point of the Grid. Wouldn't it?

Quote from: AnkhClock;1861838Well then implement that already!

wow great idea why didn't we think of that

Quote from: RibsClock;1861860We already have.

Quote from: Slurpee;1861861wow great idea why didn't we think of that

Oh you mean the Policy forum? I'm pretty sure that Sombra in his post (and thus what I thought Ribs was referring to) was proposing an idea where we can see how the staff voted on specific issues (non-contest, of course). I'd be up for a voting record thing, though again I'm fine with the Grid discussions being private.

we have something really cool in the pipes that piney programmed
to let users know how the individual members of the elected staff fall on issues
it's a fully functional site feature that we've been using for a week and a half
it hasn't been rolled out for public viewing yet because it's not quite ready

patience. you'll all be able to thanklessly spit it back in our faces in due time.

Quote from: RibsClock;1861871No I mean a public record of all grid vote initiatives.

Each motion, ban appeals rule changes the works.

Quote from: Slurpee;1861876we have something really cool in the pipes that piney programmed
to let users know how the individual members of the elected staff fall on issues
it's a fully functional site feature that we've been using for a week and a half
it hasn't been rolled out for public viewing yet because it's not quite ready

patience. you'll all be able to thanklessly spit it back in our faces in due time.

Oh. Well that sounds really cool.

My point still stands though. :stubborn:

Quote from: RibsClock;1861921Which point that we should have this thing that we have or something else

The fact that since the thing has yet to be opened to the public it therefore cannot be considered fully implemented.

And you should do that.

At some point.

Quote from: Slurpee;1861861wow great idea why didn't we think of that

Yeah why didn't you Slurpee I'm pretty disappointed and have half a mind not to vote for you come next election.

I'll just go ask piney to push the big red button that makes these thing happen
everybody be sure to thank ankh for this great idea

pineappleclock has informed me that there is not, in fact, a big red button that, when pushed, implements site features

I still have much to learn

Quote from: Slurpee;1861927pineappleclock has informed me that there is not, in fact, a big red button that, when pushed, implements site features

I still have much to learn

Clearly we need such a device. Why are you sitting on your hands, Clock Crew staff? How can we be ten years from 8/15 and still not have a big red button.

Quote from: RibsClock;1861933Okay allow me to make this as clear as I possibly can:

We have a motions function that creates a record of who voted on what motion
This is a functioning thing that is currently integrated in the site
That record shall be made public
This is something we have

Maybe this helps
http://www.clockcrew.cc/ccsite/motions/index

what the


who gave you that url

Quote from: Slurpee;1861926I'll just go ask piney to push the big red button that makes these thing happen
everybody be sure to thank ankh for this great idea

I was joking I guess that wasn't clear?

Quote from: RibsClock;1861933Okay allow me to make this as clear as I possibly can:

We have a motions function that creates a record of who voted on what motion
This is a functioning thing that is currently integrated in the site
That record shall be made public
This is something we have

Well I didn't know about that before no reason to jump on anyone. Also my demand to implement shit wasn't really a serious demand more of a gentle ribbing to get you to roll out more cool stuff but rereading the posts I guess it wasn't clear considering both you and Slurpee flipped your shit.

I mean I know there's a ton of people in the Crew being little shits recently but come on have I even been one of the guys who goes around bitching about unimportant bullshit?

I'm not supposed to see that?

(https://clockcrew.net/talk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.myfrogbag.com%2Fvxfasb%2FGARRRRRFF.png&hash=d7f0ce28b322c30376bfcab1a68fd29f479a108b)

Haha

Quote from: AnkhClock;1861941I mean I know there's a ton of people in the Crew being little shits recently but come on have I even been one of the guys who goes around bitching about unimportant bullshit?

I think it's more the fact they told you something several times and then you didn't get it several times.

Quote from: HeinekenClock;1861942I'm not supposed to see that?



Haha

I

don't know?

I was ~80% sure the public wasn't supposed to see this yet.
I thought we had some kinks to work out, vis a vis the motions app vs. grid polling, and the clarity of the information on display but
whatever
not my baby :shrug:

Quote from: AnkhClock;1861941words

:facepalm:
(that's for me, not you.)

wayyyy too subtle, broheim.

I'm sorry I came off snippy. I try not to, but you must understand I'm routinely filling the distressingly in demand and linguistically perilous role of deconstructing and explaining a variety of bizarre misunderstandings and misconceptions, and, as I've repeatedly demonstrated in the past, I don't have the mental wherewithal to do it with any kind of consistency. to my drama weary eyes you just looked like another problem.

up until your "why didn't you think of that, slurpee?" post I legitimately thought you were innocuously making an unrealistic request (as if somehow nothing could be more complicated than simply stating its basic premise), and even that post read to me as having a tone of semi-sincere criticism. not that I expect that from you, just at this point I don't expect it to not come from anyone.

I apologize for the sarcasm and curtness.
and, while I appreciate the gesture, please, no more gentle ribbing while I'm at work. it'll be the death of me, I swear it.

see you in ccbt. <3 {{{}}}

It's okay Slurpee I still love you {{}}

Quote from: HeinekenClock;1861942I think it's more the fact they told you something several times and then you didn't get it several times.

Hey it's not my fault I'm dumb (yes it is)

Are you aware we can also see past motions?