Clock Crew

For example: "That's so gay" or "That video game had some really gay mechanics"

Something I've been thinking recently, Is it really wrong to use the word in this context? To me, it only seemed that recently there has been an uproar about people using the word gay to describe something with a negative connotation. Sure, it may be a demographic of people that refer to themselves as gay, however before that gay had been an alternate word for happy, why can't it have an alternate context to describe something negatively? The word fuck has many different meanings based on context, why can't gay?

people give power to words by choosing to be offended by them

I think it's important to realize that the word "gay" has been used negatively a lot within the context of homosexuality. Also imagine if people started saying "that's so jewish". It seems like a stretch but it's pretty similar.

Just because it's been a part of society for a while doesn't necessarily make it okay. Gay people are pretty much the most discriminated people in the world right now, they deserve a little respect.

Quote from: RibsClock;1872275Uh actually that happens.

Haha yeah I kind of realized that. I guess what I was pointing out was how much more of a sting it has.

I already got used to say "that's pretty fucking lame" instead.

For me, calling something "gay" is just a general insult. I don't find gay people to be "gay"... I dunno, it's hard to explain :S

Wait, what about the original source of the word? Isn't something gay supposed to be full of joy?

I think it all depends on the context. It's possible for word meanings to change over time, I mean gay used to mean happy.

I'm damn careful when I use vulgar insults, not so much in the sense of curse words as much as they are slurs of sorts. Fuck is a great word. The N word and gay (in the wrong context) are not.

although to be honest, i substitute gay with fabulous all the time. thanks clockcrew.

Quote from: DWARFINATORclock;1872272people give power to words by choosing to be offended by them

Choosing to be offended by a word? Hey, fuck you.

Quote from: PolyhedronClock;1872289I'm damn careful when I use vulgar insults, not so much in the sense of curse words as much as they are slurs of sorts. Fuck is a great word. The N word and gay (in the wrong context) are not.

although to be honest, i substitute gay with fabulous all the time. thanks clockcrew.

Silver Shamrock

Quote from: GodClock;1872266For example: "That's so gay" or "That video game had some really gay mechanics"

Something I've been thinking recently, Is it really wrong to use the word in this context? To me, it only seemed that recently there has been an uproar about people using the word gay to describe something with a negative connotation. Sure, it may be a demographic of people that refer to themselves as gay, however before that gay had been an alternate word for happy, why can't it have an alternate context to describe something negatively? The word fuck has many different meanings based on context, why can't gay?

Well, gay already does have different meanings based on context. The difference between 'gay' and 'fuck', though, is that one is almost always an adjective (except of course when people say they "love the gays!") most commonly used by an array of people to define themselves, and the other is mostly used as a noun (except of course when people say they "love the fucking gays!").

Even if I were comparing 'gay' to a word other than 'fuck', I'd probably come to the same conclusion. Gay is a word used in the homosexual community for identification of sorts. The use of the word outside its "happy/homosexual" context only makes it more difficult for gay men and women to fit in.

Imagine how confusing it might be for a gay teen to admit and conclude that they're 'gay' when the word means 'homosexual' all the while encompassing almost everything that is unwanted or unappreciated according to other teens' general use. There are very few people this teen can reach out to if everyone around them uses the word 'gay' negatively. It makes them feel like there is actually something wrong with their sexual orientation.

Being a straight teen is hard enough, you probably know, imagine now another, even thicker, layer of abstraction. You can't hear what's coming in and you can't send a message out.

Quote from: DWARFINATORclock;1872272people give power to words by choosing to be offended by them

I think people can choose to be offended by a given situation (like a Christian Texan being offended by an Atheist street sign or a mother being offended by a naked homeless man), but I don't think the same can be said for words.

Sure, people can choose to be offended by a series of words that make up a sentence, but some words are extremely loaded and they sound the same, feel the same, and mean the same thing in any kind of context. I can never say "Canadian" is an insult based on my want to be offended. It isn't loaded with negative meaning. There hasn't been a need for it to be reclaimed.

A single person doesn't give power to words, history and general usage do. People give power to other people, if you want to go with the whole 'choosing to be offended' thing.

It's a weird subject for me because A) I don't use the word all the time, and B) some gay people I know don't mind it at all (using it in the other context themselves, and showing not the slightest bit of care when i do) and one guy I know gets really up-itty if anyone were so much as to use the word 'queer' to describe something strange.

Of course that guy is a complete weirdo and more than a little stuck up his own ass, so take it with a grain of salt.

Quote from: pop-tart clock;1872292Choosing to be offended by a word? Hey, fuck you.

yeah, choosing, you lil baby

I avoid using gay as a negative term, but I'll say fag as an insult. To me, there's nothing wrong with someone being gay, and if "gay" is the word that they want to use to describe themselves then I don't want to step on that. But since fag and faggot are already well established pejorative terms I'll throw them out there. And, I don't use the word fag synonym for gay. I feel like it means something very different.

I avoid the word gay and instead substitute it with horse thief or faggy.

OH I SEE word censors.

I'm offended by everything

May or may not be offensive to people, but it does always sound childish when you say it. When I was in middle school we would always say things are 'gay' and it definitely had a negative connotation, since as far as I know we all thought being gay was weird and we didn't understand it.

Faggot is probably my favorite insult in the world. Irrelevant to homosexuality of course.

I say it only out of satire for people who say it.

Quote from: PatriotClock;1872337horse thief is probably my favorite insult in the world. Irrelevant to homosexuality of course.

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1872274I think it's important to realize that the word "gay" has been used negatively a lot within the context of homosexuality.

You make a good point, often times when I hear it being used I write it off as out of context, which has much to do with what corpse said I suppose. I myself try not to use the word, like buttplug said it sounds childish and its often unnecessary anyway

Quote from: clockradioclock;1872301Well, gay already does have different meanings based on context. The difference between 'gay' and 'fuck', though, is that one is almost always an adjective (except of course when people say they "love the gays!") most commonly used by an array of people to define themselves, and the other is mostly used as a noun (except of course when people say they "love the fucking gays!").

Even if I were comparing 'gay' to a word other than 'fuck', I'd probably come to the same conclusion. Gay is a word used in the homosexual community for identification of sorts. The use of the word outside its "happy/homosexual" context only makes it more difficult for gay men and women to fit in.

Imagine how confusing it might be for a gay teen to admit and conclude that they're 'gay' when the word means 'homosexual' all the while encompassing almost everything that is unwanted or unappreciated according to other teens' general use. There are very few people this teen can reach out to if everyone around them uses the word 'gay' negatively. It makes them feel like there is actually something wrong with their sexual orientation.

Being a straight teen is hard enough, you probably know, imagine now another, even thicker, layer of abstraction. You can't hear what's coming in and you can't send a message out.

I had only used the word 'fuck' as a comparison because it probably has the most different uses of any word in the english language. However I feel that using the word gay negatively only gains its negative reputation because as satellite said they're probably the most discriminated people of today. People are scared to admit who they are and have no option to hide, Compared to the civil rights movement or the women's rights movements where they fought for their physical being. A very sad truth, however things are changing rapidly, love the gays!

Quote from: GodClock;1872356You make a good point, often times when I hear it being used I write it off as out of context, which has much to do with what corpse said I suppose. I myself try not to use the word, like buttplug said it sounds childish and its often unnecessary anyway

Isn't that how words gain new meaning anyway?

QuoteI had only used the word 'fuck' as a comparison because it probably has the most different uses of any word in the english language. However I feel that using the word gay negatively only gains its negative reputation because as satellite said they're probably the most discriminated people of today. People are scared to admit who they are and have no option to hide, Compared to the civil rights movement or the women's rights movements where they fought for their physical being. A very sad truth, however things are changing rapidly, love the gays!

I'm not saying there isn't any discrimination against gays, but it definitely isn't as bad as it was during the civil rights movement. Do you see any gay people getting hosed down or shot during gay pride parades?

Calling someone a fag or gay as a serious insult is pretty lame and shows a lack of creativity. You can argue that you arent homophobic as much as you want but if you're using that as a serious insult it definitely implies something.

I never used "gay" to describe stuff that I didn't like.  It was a slang word that never made sense to me so I never used it.

Back when I was younger, though, I used to call assholes or people who acted idiotically "horse thiefs".  I did it pretty much the same way Louis CK describes, although I hadn't ever seen that bit until after I stopped using the word.  I never thought about gay people when I was saying it but I realized that it was a word whose use gave the person saying it a negative connotation, and that the word carried its past as an epithet with it, no matter how the person uses it.  So I stopped a couple years ago..

I've always been curious about what a gay person's thoughts were on the use of this word.

Louis CK did a segment in his show on it that I thought was thought-provoking, and I was curious if any gay folks in the Clock Crew agreed with the what the character in the show says or feels differently about it.

[video=youtube_share;v-55wC5dEnc]http://youtu.be/v-55wC5dEnc[/video]

I spoke to a gay person briefly about modern informal usage of the word "gay" and he said that he and some of his homosexual friends weren't bothered by it too much when a "good-intentioned" person used it as an insult/ expression of dislike. When I say good-intentioned I mean your average person that respects the homosexual choice and would stand up for a gay person in a case of physical violence/ hate crimes, but still uses "gay" in a derogatory way for various reasons.

I personally don't use "gay" as a derogatory word or call my friends/ strangers "horse thief" but I think in part it goes past political correctness. I have really strong feelings about political correctness and self-censorship being a former journalist and huge proponent of free speech. If other people want to say shit like that, fine, that's their choice.

My real problem with it, besides it being hateful, is that it's just lazy language usage. Instead of calling a physics test "gay" or "I'm a edgy teen," express why you didn't like the test or fucking study more or something. Anybody that plays popular FPSes on Xbox Live can attest to how much of a clusterfuck of name-calling, racism and homophobia it is. It's so fucking repetitive and bland. I already know when someone is pissed and wants to talk, they're going to give me some iteration of a "fucking my mom" line or call me a norwegian or a horse thief. And the thing is, IRL, most of these people probably act fine with gays or at least espouse the common "I'm fine as long as they don't do it around me or make passes at me" mindset.

Also cool vid Tops. I've always thought about what it'd be like to be gay and whether it would be worth coming out. Seems like all the typical questions/ discussions would get really fucking repetitive and annoying after a while.

damn I don't know how I missed that Louie vid. That show is gold.

you should call this forum the whiners playground.
man all you do in here is whine whine whine, makes you all sound like a bunch of queers.

i have a gay friend and he calls everyone gay and a faggot so maybe you should all stop making a big deal out of this

Quote from: RibsClock;1872460I have a gay friend that doesn't.

Paradox, world implodes.

lol what a fag

no homo, btw

I agree 100% with DWARFINATORclock for the sheer fact of this.

If I say your a fag, or your gay you may get offended. Why? Because you were taught to view that word as a negative word. If I say aosuih9a8wh3aw to you, you have no idea what it means. What if that was fag fag fag gay in another language.

Point in case, go to someone that doesn't speak any english. Say, your so gay you fag. Then smile. Chances are nothing will happen...because it does't mean jack shit to them. Its people getting all anal about the way we use words and trying to build an association with them. It falls under the Nig and Ni**** context. Its cool to say to your boys.. but the moment whitey says it, it means I want you to go to the cotton fields and pick shit for me cause your black.

Same goes with Gay, gay people that I know say, your a fag and your so gay to eachother. A straight person says, your a fag.. then its an insult because were using it as a derogatory manner because it doesnt effect us. Its a stupid word like cunt which means nothing to anyone except americans and english speakers, more so americans because we bitch about everything.

Eventually saying homosexual will become homo, which will become hom which means when we same HOME were obviously calling someone a fag at some point. 5 years down the road...fag and gay won't be an issue it will be something else stupid.

This is gay.

This might very well be the gayest thread on the entire clockcrew.

And its not offensive, I literally mean that this thread likes other threads of the same gender.

(https://clockcrew.net/talk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.comics.chickennation.com%2Fwp-content%2Fwebcomic%2Fhilarity-comics%2F008_AAAAAAAAAAA.jpg&hash=09d330c4dc30df78f93de40efdd55ba54f8745d3)

Quote from: Topcatyo;1872438[video=youtube_share;v-55wC5dEnc]http://youtu.be/v-55wC5dEnc[/video]

I've always had an issue with this scene, because no, "horse thief" did not derive from burning gay people at the stake. If you look up the etymology it just kind of evolved out of a term for sissyboy.

I recall back in middle or high school when my friends would all call people "horse thief" or say something was "gay" and it was seemingly harmless, and when one of our more progressive friends would call us on it, we'd complain that they were trying to sap the fun of using that word from our life, and we weren't hurting anybody.

I don't say it anymore (unless it's a rare instance where I'm going for shock value) because, though I know this is horribly not-fun of me, I think when you're doing battle with something like bigotry in a society, you have to think big-picture about issues like this. It may seem like it doesn't affect anyone, but I think everyone silently acknowledges that by using gay or horse thief as a pejorative term for anything it hurts the gay rights movement.

I think you'll find when you take it out of your repertoire of insults to hurl at things you don't lose that much, and you may just sound smarter for it.

Quote from: GodClock;1872266For example: "That's so gay" or "That video game had some really gay mechanics"

Something I've been thinking recently, Is it really wrong to use the word in this context? To me, it only seemed that recently there has been an uproar about people using the word gay to describe something with a negative connotation. Sure, it may be a demographic of people that refer to themselves as gay, however before that gay had been an alternate word for happy, why can't it have an alternate context to describe something negatively? The word fuck has many different meanings based on context, why can't gay?

I don't see anything wrong in and of itself with saying something like "that's gay". What I think gets a little more offensive is the word f.a.g.g.o.t., and I think that the two tend to go hand in hand. When you qualify an inanimate object or a concept or an action as gay, it's clear that it's completely unrelated to sexuality, because objects and concepts don't have sexuality. But then when you start calling people f.a.g.g.o.t.s (not meaning that they're homosexual of course) it tends to go along with a lot of talk about sucking cocks and taking it in the ass. Well that's all well and good, but if any of the people you're hanging out with did happen to at one point fuck some men, it can make them uncomfortable, and you never know who that's going to be. Not everyone with a little bi streak in them seems outwardly gay, and it may be far enough in their past that you don't know about it, but not far enough that they don't. If they've ever been picked on for being gay, that just adds to it.

Also I find these word filters offensive.

Quote from: F U Clock;1872483I've always had an issue with this scene, because no, "horse thief" did not derive from burning gay people at the stake. If you look up the etymology it just kind of evolved out of a term for sissyboy.

That may be true, but it's the least relevant part to the modern context. The point is that when he hears that word, it makes him think about a bunch of nasty shit that's happened in his life.

My own take on it is pretty simple. I think it's a shitty word to use to describe something if you're being totally serious. That being said, I will admit to using the word "gay", "horse thief", and other homophobic slurs many a time. That probably makes me a hypocrite too. The reason I use it so much is probably because of my upbringing, and just hearing it so much. In my mind it really is something more of a statement of "That is effeminate" rather than "I hate gay people." Is this right? Probably not at all. I don't hate gay people, I'm all for gay rights, and I don't think it's ok to persecute anybody, or to hate anyone for their sexual preference. I also think that it is hateful that gay couples don't have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples. (I do however think private institutions such as religions have a right to turn away gay couples from things like marriage in order to preserve their traditions) It's also a really tough thing to ask somebody to take a word out of their lexicon. Especially if it's a charged word that has been used by somebody for decades. A good example of this is when Senator Robert Byrd said on Fox News "There are white norwegians, I've seen a lot of white norwegians." Despite the fact he was in the KKK in his youth, I do believe in his older years he felt remorse for his racist upbringing, and didn't really have hate in his heart. Just the same, I still hear a whole lot of old folks refer to black people as "colored" and I think a whole lot of them don't think they're better than anybody else because of skin color.

So what I'm trying to say is this. Saying things like "that's gay" or "quit being a horse thief" may not necessarily be intended as a way of putting somebody down for being gay. I also don't believe that everyone who says these things have that kind of hate in their heart. So people who are gay, if you have a friend who slips with something like "horse thief" let it slide unless it becomes a real problem. If you need to confront them about it, do it privately. And for people who really do have that kind of hatred in their heart, they're just ignorant pieces of shit. That being said, I also think it's perfectly ok to criticize somebody for being effeminate regardless of their sexuality. There are just some people who are so outlandishly flamboyant especially in the worst situations that they probably deserve some criticism. A good example of this is in the 2010 Winter Olympics when Evengi Plushenko declared his silver medal was a "platinum medal" after losing. Something like that reaches the point of being effeminate on so many levels. Somewhere between girly man, "gay", and being a pussy.

I also don't think calling somebody a girly man, or a pussy is homophobic at all. Just because you like to have sex with other men doesn't mean you need to act like a little prissy girl. That being said, I know a whole ton of straight men who need to cowboy the fuck up. That means not letting your girlfriend hold your nuts in her purse and return em when she wants you to put out, drinking light beer, making a lip sync video to Britney Spears, or enjoying My Little Pony. Folks should have a right to do all this crap, but folks like me should also have the right to criticize those people without being called bigoted or hateful.

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1872369I'm not saying there isn't any discrimination against gays, but it definitely isn't as bad as it was during the civil rights movement. Do you see any gay people getting hosed down or shot during gay pride parades?

I'd imagine that in the countries where they're safe enough to have a parade, their parades are probably safe. There are still countries in the world that execute homosexuals.

Quote from: Topcatyo;1872438Louis CK did a segment in his show on it that I thought was thought-provoking, and I was curious if any gay folks in the Clock Crew agreed with the what the character in the show says or feels differently about it.

Etymology myth aside, I agree completely.

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872472If I say your a fag, or your gay you may get offended. Why? Because you were taught to view that word as a negative word.

Unless you're gay, in which case you are offended because those words remind you of being tormented. There's shit that goes on in this world that you don't know about because it happens outside of your very limited view port. Try to keep that in mind.

Quote from: RibsClock;1872485sigh...another one to add to the list I guess...

I just spent more than an hour reading everything. Interesting stuff.

this thread is

Quote from: RibsClock;1872485sigh...another one to add to the list I guess...

My brother is convinced that the whole "if you ask a cop if he's a cop, he has to tell you" thing is true.  I've been trying to tell him why that is stupid and makes no sense, but maybe it being in this Wikipedia article will help me win this argument.

Quote from: Topcatyo;1872518My brother is convinced that the whole "if you ask a cop if he's a cop, he has to tell you" thing is true.  I've been trying to tell him why that is stupid and makes no sense, but maybe it being in this Wikipedia article will help me win this argument.

I love absorbing common misconceptions but they're extremely un-useful for bringing up in conversation because people never believe you unless you're near a computer.

we're having a gay old time!

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1872499Etymology myth aside, I agree completely.


 
Unless you're gay, in which case you are offended because those words remind you of being tormented. There's shit that goes on in this world that you don't know about because it happens outside of your very limited view port. Try to keep that in mind.

Or because you just referenced exactly the demoenor that I was associating it with. Your a fag, take it like a champ. Did I just call you a cock sucking individual or did I just use the word to say, you suck at life and eat dick. Use it at your own will, take it as you will its a word.

It amazes me that people find Gay and Fag offensive. Maybe we should ban everything that is offensive to someone because it brings up memmories of being tormented. Here I will start with a simple situation.

I was held at gun point when I was 20. This is a serious thing. The guy had an AK47 and was going to shoot me and the EOD guy I was with. You know what he said to me? Die you American fag, you think you know better than me? You know what happened? My side team lit him up. I work ammo and work around munitions, thus it would be stupid for me to have something that can shoot next to me when I deal with unstable shit that goes boom. Its something that offended me. So from now on fuck you and what you stand for, if you use the following words your essentially offending me by reminding me of the torment I went through when I was in another country and almost got shot.

Words that are now banned:

Die
you
American
fag
think
know
better
than
me

Thank you for playing my game.

The difference is that gay people who get tormented don't get paid, and don't agree to be treated badly. People who join the military on the other hand know that they're putting themselves into some potentially really bad shit, and agree to do it. It's a dirty job, and it's probably in reality not totally worth the pay but it's still a job. The rest are just people trying to live their life without being shat on by a general population. Also is "American" "Think" "You" "Know" "Better" "Than" and "Me" in their own usage really offensive to you? And arguably out of context "Die" can be reasonable for an example "The battery on my phone is about to die."

It's also unfair to expect every person to be able to put up with the shit that people in the military put up with.

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872723Or because you just referenced exactly the demoenor that I was associating it with. Your a fag, take it like a champ. Did I just call you a cock sucking individual or did I just use the word to say, you suck at life and eat dick. Use it at your own will, take it as you will its a word.

It amazes me that people find Gay and Fag offensive. Maybe we should ban everything that is offensive to someone because it brings up memmories of being tormented. Here I will start with a simple situation.

You're making a really common mistake here: Just because somebody doesn't want you to say something, doesn't mean they want it banned. "Offensive" is a loaded word; it's not as political as all that. It's really just a matter of not making people feel bad.

Functionally, they're generic insults, but the cusp of the insult is rooted in a cultural rejection of homosexuals and homosexuality- one that's still really pervasive. So pervasive, in fact, that homosexuals generally can't tell the difference in common parlance, because it's used very flippantly even by those that are completely sincere in their rejection of homosexuality.

If I say, "Veggie burgers? That's gay," what I'm saying is "The concept of a veggie burger is something akin to the behavior or characteristics of homosexual culture, which is bad and I don't even have to explain why." When a straight person hears it, they hear a poorly worded rejection of veggie burgers, but a gay person hears, "Veggie burgers are bad, and, while I'm at it, to hell with gay people as well." To a gay person it comes across as not only a personal insult akin to "Hey, you, you know how people think you're bad? Well, you are," but also an open display of bigotry, which often goes hand-in-hand with personal rejection, threatening behavior, or even physical violence. I'm not saying that's always the case- the majority of the time it's not, but, as a gay person, I can't afford the luxury of assumption, because every once in a while I'm actually in danger.

Try not to think of it as a question of whether you should be allowed to say it. Of COURSE you should be allowed to say it. The question is do you want to be the kind of person that makes innocent people feel insulted and unsafe because he can't think of a better way to say veggie burgers suck?

It's difficult to explain to somebody who's never been in this situation, but, particularly for teenagers that are still in the closet, the pervasiveness of "gay" insults can make you feel like you don't have any allies in the world. The pain of being ashamed of who you are is something that eats away at you for a long time, leaving you full of anxiety, depressed, and often teetering on the edge of a nervous breakdown. Since our problem is who we are, we train ourselves not to show any sign of it. We spend our time lying to everybody, about ourselves, and our true feelings. And the world responds by telling us Keep it up. You're not normal. If you tell anybody about this, your life is going to fall apart. This guy just called this other guy a faggot. He hates you. Don't let him know. Hide it. Keep your head down. Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.

Can you imagine how toxic that is to a person? To a 12 year old? What a scary, awful place the world must seem? To not have anybody in the world that you know would be on your side? Not your mother, or father, or best friend? Can you imagine what it's like to be a kid waiting in the lunch line, and hearing somebody say something about faggots, and suddenly being afraid, suddenly loathing yourself again, but never showing it? It's like... going through life constantly sick to your stomach.

Look: I'm a big person. Thick-skinned. I don't begrudge people their linguistic oversights. I don't expect everyone to see things the same way, and I know the world is hard, and life is unfair, and nobody's going to make it through life without causing their fair share of inadvertent harm.
But it's just something to think about. You could be that anonymous voice in the lunch line in somebody's life- an accidental reminder that somebody hates them. The lingering threat of rejection. It could be someone very close to you. Someone you care about. Someone you'd die for. And, to paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut, quoting his son, Mark, "Aren't we here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is?"

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1872498I'd imagine that in the countries where they're safe enough to have a parade, their parades are probably safe. There are still countries in the world that execute homosexuals.

True, but then again there's still religious and racial strife going on in places too. Whoever I was talking to referred the civil rights movement so I was assuming this meant how gays are treated in America.

Quote from: DWARFINATORclock;1872458i have a gay friend and he calls everyone gay and a horse thief so maybe you should all stop making a big deal out of this

i have a black friend who loves being called nigga all day so lets do it to every black guy all day

If I stub my toe on the door, it's gay for being open.
If my internet is slow or if my computer isn't working right, it's being gay.
If my friends are being dicks, they're being gay.

I don't associate the word with homosexuality when I say it in a responce to something being bad.
But when I say it like that, people get all uptight like I'm the bad guy and I'm all "MY FUCKING TOE IS BLEEDING norwegian SHUT UP"

Ugh, gays.

Quote from: Slurpee;1872756You're making a really common mistake here: Just because somebody doesn't want you to say something, doesn't mean they want it banned. "Offensive" is a loaded word; it's not as political as all that. It's really just a matter of not making people feel bad.

Functionally, they're generic insults, but the cusp of the insult is rooted in a cultural rejection of homosexuals and homosexuality- one that's still really pervasive. So pervasive, in fact, that homosexuals generally can't tell the difference in common parlance, because it's used very flippantly even by those that are completely sincere in their rejection of homosexuality.

If I say, "Veggie burgers? That's gay," what I'm saying is "The concept of a veggie burger is something akin to the behavior or characteristics of homosexual culture, which is bad and I don't even have to explain why." When a straight person hears it, they hear a poorly worded rejection of veggie burgers, but a gay person hears, "Veggie burgers are bad, and, while I'm at it, to hell with gay people as well." To a gay person it comes across as not only a personal insult akin to "Hey, you, you know how people think you're bad? Well, you are," but also an open display of bigotry, which often goes hand-in-hand with personal rejection, threatening behavior, or even physical violence. I'm not saying that's always the case- the majority of the time it's not, but, as a gay person, I can't afford the luxury of assumption, because every once in a while I'm actually in danger.

Try not to think of it as a question of whether you should be allowed to say it. Of COURSE you should be allowed to say it. The question is do you want to be the kind of person that makes innocent people feel insulted and unsafe because he can't think of a better way to say veggie burgers suck?

It's difficult to explain to somebody who's never been in this situation, but, particularly for teenagers that are still in the closet, the pervasiveness of "gay" insults can make you feel like you don't have any allies in the world. The pain of being ashamed of who you are is something that eats away at you for a long time, leaving you full of anxiety, depressed, and often teetering on the edge of a nervous breakdown. Since our problem is who we are, we train ourselves not to show any sign of it. We spend our time lying to everybody, about ourselves, and our true feelings. And the world responds by telling us Keep it up. You're not normal. If you tell anybody about this, your life is going to fall apart. This guy just called this other guy a faggot. He hates you. Don't let him know. Hide it. Keep your head down. Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.

Can you imagine how toxic that is to a person? To a 12 year old? What a scary, awful place the world must seem? To not have anybody in the world that you know would be on your side? Not your mother, or father, or best friend? Can you imagine what it's like to be a kid waiting in the lunch line, and hearing somebody say something about faggots, and suddenly being afraid, suddenly loathing yourself again, but never showing it? It's like... going through life constantly sick to your stomach.

Look: I'm a big person. Thick-skinned. I don't begrudge people their linguistic oversights. I don't expect everyone to see things the same way, and I know the world is hard, and life is unfair, and nobody's going to make it through life without causing their fair share of inadvertent harm.
But it's just something to think about. You could be that anonymous voice in the lunch line in somebody's life- an accidental reminder that somebody hates them. The lingering threat of rejection. It could be someone very close to you. Someone you care about. Someone you'd die for. And, to paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut, quoting his son, Mark, "Aren't we here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is?"

This entire post lost its credability when you cited the 12 year old kid, whom I am sure never jumped on Xbox, gamecube, gameboy, pokemon, hello kitty adventure island, went to school, or had such a sheltered life in the first place that they never said, fuck shit damn, cuntrocket, this shit is gay, thats gay, your mom, fag, i fucked...etc.

Innocence only goes as far as you can throw a rock, maybe a couple of feet because when you get up close to anyone, no one is innocent. Don't fool yourself, the old lady down the street who is a saint has had some dirt in her life at least once.

Back to my original point, its a word. Its a word that you empower by being childish about the meaning. The world fag means nothing to Euro's, unless your talking about a cig. You want a fag? The first time I heard that I almost died laughing. Mainly because of how freely its used. Go to aussie land, you think the word gay is used like we use it? Actually its not, I visit my buddy in australia and laugh when he says we had a gay time right?

Its a word that you shelter people from making it a word to scowl at. Go to another language, try phillipines, and see the word they use. Its called Bukla, or girlboy. Guess what they do in the culture there.. thats right, they say, thats gay. Meaning its different outcome one that you would not expect. The problem here is that your american, or your americanized.

You want to fight for your right to bitch and moan about everything. Oh i dont have freedom wha wha, fuck that. Shut your mouth the word fag is in the dictionary, its not changing, and I will use it like I want. Why, because its a word that only you empower and make stronger because you want to tell me why it hurts your feelings. You know why I use it.. cause I am a sadistic bastard that likes to hurt your feelings and since I can call you a faggot, fag gay kid and get away with it and you still cry, then your still the fag gay kid in my book. You make it a problem. Not me.

I wouldn't say being offended by the word is what empowers it, it's the people who use it when committing acts of hate, or just being hateful in general that empower the word.

I'd also imagine it's not so much about choosing to be offended by it but about the negative memories it brings up.  It's like, if your parents would wear scary masks and beat the shit out of you while repeating the word "provolone", hearing the word "provolone" might have an adverse effect on your psyche.

cran, I'd like to point you to the end of slurp's post:

Quote"Aren't we here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is?"

Should our right to say a word really be more important than the alleviation of potential suffering?

Quote from: clammo;1872779i think you made up that story

Im just humiliated

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872836This entire post lost its credability when you cited the 12 year old kid, whom I am sure never jumped on Xbox, gamecube, gameboy, pokemon, hello kitty adventure island, went to school, or had such a sheltered life in the first place that they never said, fuck shit damn, cuntrocket, this shit is gay, thats gay, your mom, fag, i fucked...etc.

Innocence only goes as far as you can throw a rock, maybe a couple of feet because when you get up close to anyone, no one is innocent. Don't fool yourself, the old lady down the street who is a saint has had some dirt in her life at least once.

Back to my original point, its a word. Its a word that you empower by being childish about the meaning. The world fag means nothing to Euro's, unless your talking about a cig. You want a fag? The first time I heard that I almost died laughing. Mainly because of how freely its used. Go to aussie land, you think the word gay is used like we use it? Actually its not, I visit my buddy in australia and laugh when he says we had a gay time right?

Its a word that you shelter people from making it a word to scowl at. Go to another language, try phillipines, and see the word they use. Its called Bukla, or girlboy. Guess what they do in the culture there.. thats right, they say, thats gay. Meaning its different outcome one that you would not expect. The problem here is that your american, or your americanized.

You want to fight for your right to bitch and moan about everything. Oh i dont have freedom wha wha, fuck that. Shut your mouth the word fag is in the dictionary, its not changing, and I will use it like I want. Why, because its a word that only you empower and make stronger because you want to tell me why it hurts your feelings. You know why I use it.. cause I am a sadistic bastard that likes to hurt your feelings and since I can call you a horse thief, fag gay kid and get away with it and you still cry, then your still the fag gay kid in my book. You make it a problem. Not me.

I'm not arguing for my right to bitch and moan, don't be a lout. My argument is that there's an insult inherent in using a comparison to a group of people as an insult (which is to say nothing of the nebulous sociological issue of perpetuating a stigma against a repressed minority) and you've said nothing to refute that. The rest was an attempt to help you understand what it's like to be insulted in this way and the day to day struggles of the people affected by it, because I understand that one can't truly understand these things if one hasn't lived them. You could accept that offer of explanation or not, but responding to it with aggression was boorish and may I say willfully close-minded. I don't pretend to know what it's like to have a gun pointed at me. But if somebody who did know, because they'd experienced it, tried to tell me about it, to better my understanding of their situation, for whatever reason, I wouldn't insult them and tell them how I think they should deal with that experience. I'd listen, because I might learn something.

Yes, it is a word, it's in the dictionary, its meaning is limited in scope to people who understand that it's an insult- none of these things detract from the fact that it's an insult. If you call somebody an idiot, you're saying they're of below average intelligence and aren't worthy of your respect as an intellectual equal. One could certainly argue idiot is just a word, and means nothing outside of its language of origin, but that's essentially besides the point. The insult lies in the fact that the speaker was communicating a disparaging assessment to the listener. If you use a comparison to a group of people without further elaboration as an insult, you're tacitly insulting that group by hinging another insult on the notion that there's something inherently undesirable about them; i.e. you're communicating a disparaging assessment of them- a group of people who generally have nothing to do with the thing you're insulting. Feeling insulted by an insult is not only a perfectly reasonable reaction, it's the natural human reaction. The intent of the speaker doesn't remove the pejorative nature of using something as a negative comparison, and it doesn't magically excuse whatever the ill effects are on anybody on the receiving end of that insult.

You could certainly argue, in your words, that you do it because you're a sadistic bastard who likes hurting people's feelings, but by that you're not arguing that it's not wrong, you're arguing that you don't care that it's wrong, which is so irrelevant it's tantamount to not having an argument. And in response to a claim that you're attempting to hurt my feelings, I'd remind you that I just got done saying I'm thick-skinned and that I don't begrudge people their linguistic oversights. So if it's your design to insult me, you've failed. The cusp of an insult is, as I said, in the speaker communicating a disparaging assessment to the listener, and for that to work I'd have to respect the integrity and accuracy of your opinion, which you've given me little reason to do. I'm attempting to argue in good faith, but what I actually believe is that you're responding with aggression because you're experiencing a measure of cognitive dissonance. You're the type of man who doesn't like being told that he's done wrong by some snot nosed little fag on the internet. Especially when that snot nosed little fag is completely right.

Quote from: Slurpee;1872855I'm not arguing for my right to bitch and moan, don't be a lout. My argument is that there's an insult inherent in using a comparison to a group of people as an insult (which is to say nothing of the nebulous sociological issue of perpetuating a stigma against a repressed minority) and you've said nothing to refute that. The rest was an attempt to help you understand what it's like to be insulted in this way and the day to day struggles of the people affected by it, because I understand that one can't truly understand these things if one hasn't lived them. You could accept that offer of explanation or not, but responding to it with aggression was boorish and may I say willfully close-minded. I don't pretend to know what it's like to have a gun pointed at me. But if somebody who did know, because they'd experienced it, tried to tell me about it, to better my understanding of their situation, for whatever reason, I wouldn't insult them and tell them how I think they should deal with that experience. I'd listen, because I might learn something.

Yes, it is a word, it's in the dictionary, its meaning is limited in scope to people who understand that it's an insult- none of these things detract from the fact that it's an insult. If you call somebody an idiot, you're saying they're of below average intelligence and aren't worthy of your respect as an intellectual equal. One could certainly argue idiot is just a word, and means nothing outside of its language of origin, but that's essentially besides the point. The insult lies in the fact that the speaker was communicating a disparaging assessment to the listener. If you use a comparison to a group of people without further elaboration as an insult, you're tacitly insulting that group by hinging another insult on the notion that there's something inherently undesirable about them; i.e. you're communicating a disparaging assessment of them- a group of people who generally have nothing to do with the thing you're insulting. Feeling insulted by an insult is not only a perfectly reasonable reaction, it's the natural human reaction. The intent of the speaker doesn't remove the pejorative nature of using something as a negative comparison, and it doesn't magically excuse whatever the ill effects are on anybody on the receiving end of that insult.

You could certainly argue, in your words, that you do it because you're a sadistic bastard who likes hurting people's feelings, but by that you're not arguing that it's not wrong, you're arguing that you don't care that it's wrong, which is so irrelevant it's tantamount to not having an argument. And in response to a claim that you're attempting to hurt my feelings, I'd remind you that I just got done saying I'm thick-skinned and that I don't begrudge people their linguistic oversights. So if it's your design to insult me, you've failed. The cusp of an insult is, as I said, in the speaker communicating a disparaging assessment to the listener, and for that to work I'd have to respect the integrity and accuracy of your opinion, which you've given me little reason to do. I'm attempting to argue in good faith, but what I actually believe is that you're responding with aggression because you're experiencing a measure of cognitive dissonance. You're the type of man who doesn't like being told that he's done wrong by some snot nosed little fag on the internet. Especially when that snot nosed little fag is completely right.

Your 100% right. I need to re-evaluate the way that I look at life. Or you need to not spend so much time trying to play doctor and realize that the opinions of mine is mine alone and the word fag means nothing more than the word stone. When someone calls you a fag, its not because your comparing them to a set of people, its comparing that person to the meaning of the word. At no point when I say your homosexual do I mean the entire race and civilization of people whe loves another person of the same born sex is the same as you. What I mean is, You are homosexual as in you are the as webster puts it: Adjective; person/persons/species act of attraction for purpose of stimulation sexually or mentally in attempts of procreatation recreation using the same born sex.

Essentially there, I said your someone that likes to do the same thing. I at no point said anything wrong with it. I said your homosexual. When I say fag, its because homosexual does not roll off the tongue. When I say gay, its because people were offended by the word faggot at some point in history and decided gay was a term better suited for them because it means "happy" as the original meaning. To be "GAY" was to be happy, so people who likes the same sex decided to be "GAY". There for I am glad you are gay and not a faggot.

When I use the term such as, this shit is gay, I am not saying this is men pushing the penis into men. I am also not saying this is a woman shoving her twat into another twat. I at no point am referancing an entire group of people doing that act, no is that shit the act of doing it. Its a sarcastic sodism expression that one says as an audible/variable placeholder of lack of a better description by associating a word "HAPPY" as a cross refrence negative with an adjective that is negative. This shit is happy (sarcastically). Thats where that term comes from. What happens is people benine to the actual comeabouts of words decide they want to play dick tracy hold a sign and show two men making love, then fight as if people care. People don't care, but people care when people make a bigger story out of it.

People do not like gay people, its considered unnatural to some, thats fine, let bigons be bigons. The problem is people like you decide you want to fight and join in on the fight and continue it. What you essentially do is just add fuel to the fire. Your not protecting anyone by making the word non-derogatory, in fact you make it worse. Ask your self a question, did you drink underage? Did you smoke ever? Have you done drugs? Did you have sex or look at porn before you were 18? What does this have in common? Alot.. this is the point where this post of yours turns from some guy posting on the internet to some guy who is most likely older than you, has a well versed education, has seen the world, and more than likely has done more with his life this year that you have done in your entire time in the clockcrew. Basically what I am saying is, prepare to learn something.

You don'd do actions in life because you can. You do them because you can't. Why do you continue to make flash movies? Its not because your the best thing since sliced bread. It's because you can reap a reward. Now apply that logic to the gay community. Why do they continue to fight? Its not because they keep winning, its because they want to continue to get what they don't have. You will never win the argument of gay. Thats like asking people to stop using Jesus as a shout out. There is nothing wrong, its not a hate crime. If I said nigger on the other hand, thats a hate crime. Gay is not. How are the two different you ask? Well people who are fags never had it so bad they were enslaved. They also weren't sold. No instead they had some people killed etc etc. Oh noe... jesus... fuck.. gay whaa.. some people died. More people die over stupid shit than people being gay, being called a fag and becoming a hate crime statistic. People die because of race, religion, because of drugs, because well they are unlucky... nothing happens to them. Why don't they get words that offend them revoked.

Ah, you see I know where your going to spin, so sit down for a second and continue to listen. What your looking at is the small picture. What you see is that I am saying fag this fag that, using the context of the word without justice. What you fail to see is the shear fact that I am saying this on purpose with no remorse. Has it changed you? Because I said this thread is gay, and I think your a fag. Nothing has changed in life. Are you going to off yourself? Are you going to cry about it? I could get a ban, sure.. but for what.. what is that going to change. Nothing. However I expect after I post this your going to cry about it, get mad inside, and hit that button below that says REPLY. Guess what. I will be waiting with a simple response of.. you have given that word more power because you took the time to reply being offended or supporting the idolistic view that a simple set of black ink or spoken words said is enough to drive you to the point of hating or getting mad. Get the fuck over it. Close your ears. Awaiting your reply you sly devil from the internet.

-Cran

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872877I am also not saying this is a woman shoving her twat into another twat.

That is not how vaginas

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872877When someone calls you a fag, its not because your comparing them to a set of people, its comparing that person to the meaning of the word. At no point when I say your homosexual do I mean the entire race and civilization of people whe loves another person of the same born sex is the same as you. What I mean is, You are homosexual as in you are the as webster puts it: Adjective; person/persons/species act of attraction for purpose of stimulation sexually or mentally in attempts of procreatation recreation using the same born sex.

If I understand you here, you're saying: When someone calls someone a homosexual, they're not likening them to homosexuals, but to the definition of the word homosexual. Which is what homosexuals are. That's the same thing.

It's funny how important words are to philosophy. A lot of philosophers wrote about how language was how we connect with the world around us. For instance, plato talked a lot about the "forms" of things. Everything we have a word for, we have an abstract concept of what that word represents to us. So when I say something is a "chair," you know what I'm talking about even though there are millions of different chairs in the world that are slightly different. Different building materials, legs, mechanics, shapes... They all are brought together by our concept of what they are, and our words that identify them.

A lot of these same philosophers said that without the "forms," we wouldn't be able to talk about anything. No word would actually identify anything and no one would be able to understand each other. This is why I think this whole "reinvention" of words by just changing your attitude about them is completely bogus.

When you say something is "gay," or someone is a "fag," are you using it in a complimentary fashion? Of course not. It's an insult. And it's an insult because it's connected with homosexuality, which is abnormal and therefore weird and wrong. If you stop using that word in a derogatory sense, people won't be so quick to associate "gay" with bad, lame, stupid, wrong. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to think otherwise.

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872723Or because you just referenced exactly the demoenor that I was associating it with. Your a fag, take it like a champ. Did I just call you a cock sucking individual or did I just use the word to say, you suck at life and eat dick. Use it at your own will, take it as you will its a word.

It amazes me that people find Gay and Fag offensive. Maybe we should ban everything that is offensive to someone because it brings up memmories of being tormented. Here I will start with a simple situation.

I was held at gun point when I was 20. This is a serious thing. The guy had an AK47 and was going to shoot me and the EOD guy I was with. You know what he said to me? Die you American fag, you think you know better than me? You know what happened? My side team lit him up. I work ammo and work around munitions, thus it would be stupid for me to have something that can shoot next to me when I deal with unstable shit that goes boom. Its something that offended me. So from now on fuck you and what you stand for, if you use the following words your essentially offending me by reminding me of the torment I went through when I was in another country and almost got shot.

Luckily you had a side team, which is what you get in a war zone. What we're talking about here is simply someone trying to live within their society and being rejected by a large enough portion to make an impact on their lives. Also, what you 're talking about happened once, as opposed to something that may well have happened every day at one point or another. It's like saying you got splashed in the face with a bucket once so you know what Chinese water torture is like.

Quote from: RibsClock;1872839an asshole who is apathetic to the fact that he's perpetuating something that's genuinely deeply harmful.

Sadly, I am pretty sure at this point that it's that one. Disappointing too, I thought Cran was one of the good ones.

Yeah I mean, we all probably have been called "fag" or some variation throughout our life as an insult. That doesn't mean we know what it feels like to be gay and called that. Or to hear people attributing their lifestyle choice to a common insult.

Jesus fucking Christ, Cran, "you're".

If you're going to argue linguistics, use the minimum of proper grammar.

Also, the South Park episode The F Word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F_Word_%28South_Park%29) discusses this topic and I think is worth a look.  It's free to watch on the Internets or Netflix so I recommend giving it a look.  My roommate freshmen year, a gay dance/theater major, told me once that he thinks everybody should watch it.  I figure it's a good recommendation because A.) I liked the episode, B.) My roommate was a very intelligent person and C.) His being gay is somewhat pertinent to the whole matter, and he feels the episode is important.

I've found that South Park generally is pretty good at providing multiple viewpoints on issues and I think in a discussion about something as divisive as this I think thinking about the topic from as many angles as possible is beneficial.

Quote from: Topcatyo;1872900Also, the South Park episode The F Word discusses this topic and I think is worth a look.  It's free to watch on the Internets or Netflix so I recommend giving it a look.  My roommate freshmen year, a gay dance/theater major, told me once that he thinks everybody should watch it.

I've found that South Park generally is pretty good at providing multiple viewpoints on issues and I think in a discussion about something as divisive as this I think thinking about the topic from as many angles as possible is beneficial.

I always had an issue with this episode. Most South Park episodes, truth be told.

It's like they know deep-down that it's wrong and hateful to use gay slurs as generic insults, so they have to create ridiculous scenarios to make it okay. And they don't even follow those rules. They act like they want to use "fag" exclusively in reference to douchebags, and not for gay people, as a way of re-appropriating the word. But then I think back to other episodes, like the "future people" one where they're cleaning up the planet and acting like hippies and Stan says, "Wait, this is gay," so they stop, after directly comparing it to actual homosexual behavior. Or the episode where Cartman gets his ass kicked by Wendy, and Butters warns him if he loses then "everyone will think [he's] a fag..." Obviously there they mean sissy, prissy man, and not "incosiderate asshole" as they later tried to appropriate it.

So I dunno. I just don't buy it. I think they know it's wrong and they're just trying to find any BS excuse to still use it.

I think it's best not to really look to South Park in any sort of philosophical debate, because it always seems to me like a stream of consciousness from Matt and Trey. Some episodes do have good intentions, mind you, but like a person just speaking their mind at any given time, they're going to be contradictory or hypocritical in some manner.

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872877Your 100% right. I need to re-evaluate the way that I look at life. Or you need to not spend so much time trying to play doctor and realize that the opinions of mine is mine alone and the word fag means nothing more than the word stone. When someone calls you a fag, its not because your comparing them to a set of people, its comparing that person to the meaning of the word. At no point when I say your homosexual do I mean the entire race and civilization of people whe loves another person of the same born sex is the same as you. What I mean is, You are homosexual as in you are the as webster puts it: Adjective; person/persons/species act of attraction for purpose of stimulation sexually or mentally in attempts of procreatation recreation using the same born sex.

Essentially there, I said your someone that likes to do the same thing. I at no point said anything wrong with it. I said your homosexual. When I say fag, its because homosexual does not roll off the tongue. When I say gay, its because people were offended by the word horse thief at some point in history and decided gay was a term better suited for them because it means "happy" as the original meaning. To be "GAY" was to be happy, so people who likes the same sex decided to be "GAY". There for I am glad you are gay and not a horse thief.

When I use the term such as, this shit is gay, I am not saying this is men pushing the penis into men. I am also not saying this is a woman shoving her twat into another twat. I at no point am referancing an entire group of people doing that act, no is that shit the act of doing it. Its a sarcastic sodism expression that one says as an audible/variable placeholder of lack of a better description by associating a word "HAPPY" as a cross refrence negative with an adjective that is negative. This shit is happy (sarcastically). Thats where that term comes from. What happens is people benine to the actual comeabouts of words decide they want to play dick tracy hold a sign and show two men making love, then fight as if people care. People don't care, but people care when people make a bigger story out of it.

People do not like gay people, its considered unnatural to some, thats fine, let bigons be bigons. The problem is people like you decide you want to fight and join in on the fight and continue it. What you essentially do is just add fuel to the fire. Your not protecting anyone by making the word non-derogatory, in fact you make it worse. Ask your self a question, did you drink underage? Did you smoke ever? Have you done drugs? Did you have sex or look at porn before you were 18? What does this have in common? Alot.. this is the point where this post of yours turns from some guy posting on the internet to some guy who is most likely older than you, has a well versed education, has seen the world, and more than likely has done more with his life this year that you have done in your entire time in the clockcrew. Basically what I am saying is, prepare to learn something.

You don'd do actions in life because you can. You do them because you can't. Why do you continue to make flash movies? Its not because your the best thing since sliced bread. It's because you can reap a reward. Now apply that logic to the gay community. Why do they continue to fight? Its not because they keep winning, its because they want to continue to get what they don't have. You will never win the argument of gay. Thats like asking people to stop using Jesus as a shout out. There is nothing wrong, its not a hate crime. If I said norwegian on the other hand, thats a hate crime. Gay is not. How are the two different you ask? Well people who are fags never had it so bad they were enslaved. They also weren't sold. No instead they had some people killed etc etc. Oh noe... jesus... fuck.. gay whaa.. some people died. More people die over stupid shit than people being gay, being called a fag and becoming a hate crime statistic. People die because of race, religion, because of drugs, because well they are unlucky... nothing happens to them. Why don't they get words that offend them revoked.

Ah, you see I know where your going to spin, so sit down for a second and continue to listen. What your looking at is the small picture. What you see is that I am saying fag this fag that, using the context of the word without justice. What you fail to see is the shear fact that I am saying this on purpose with no remorse. Has it changed you? Because I said this thread is gay, and I think your a fag. Nothing has changed in life. Are you going to off yourself? Are you going to cry about it? I could get a ban, sure.. but for what.. what is that going to change. Nothing. However I expect after I post this your going to cry about it, get mad inside, and hit that button below that says REPLY. Guess what. I will be waiting with a simple response of.. you have given that word more power because you took the time to reply being offended or supporting the idolistic view that a simple set of black ink or spoken words said is enough to drive you to the point of hating or getting mad. Get the fuck over it. Close your ears. Awaiting your reply you sly devil from the internet.

-Cran

To address your claim that any reply from me at all must be rooted in hatred or anger, I think I've already repeatedly demonstrated that this is not the case. My goal since entering this thread has been to provide you with some perspective that you don't have so that you can reconsider your attitudes and stop making excuses for and ignoring the harm you're doing. If you felt somebody was in the habit of doing something cruel, that you'd been affected by in the past, and this person was attempting to use empty rhetoric to publicly excuse this behavior, wouldn't you do what you could to help elucidate the situation?

No, your words in this thread, as I've said, don't affect me personally. But you're going to carry those attitudes on outside of this thread, and you're going to be affecting people who aren't as thick-skinned as I am. People who've done you no harm, who don't have a lot of allies, and who I'd like to do what I can to help. Regardless of what your intent behind the insult actually is, as I've said, sincere rejection of homosexuality is often expressed in the same way, and homosexuals can't afford the luxury of assuming you're not airing your personal prejudices. Gay teens are 5 times more likely to commit suicide than their heterosexual peers. There's a reason for that. I think any steps we could take to reduce that statistic would be worth it, and as an introspective and educated person who lived life as a gay teen, I think I have a fair measure of insight as to what those causes could be, and I think any reasonable person would at least pause to give those insights consideration, because there are not a lot of people in my situation who are as patient and articulate about it as me.

You briefly address the "opinion" argument, to which I'll just say opinions are views or judgements formed about something not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Opinions can be wrong, can be held for bad or unhealthy reasons, and when one attempts to justify one's opinions with reasoning, those opinions are opened to scrutiny, where those shortcomings can be exposed. In an ideal world this would not be taken as an act of aggression, but enlightenment. We don't live in an ideal world- we live in a shitty world, but I'm willing to work through that.

You argue that in using homosexuality as an insult, you're not comparing to every homosexual ever, but to the definition of homosexual (and here I'll note that you conflated "fag" and "homosexual", and for some reason mistook homosexuality for both a race and a civilization, of which it is neither). To which I reply the definition of the word is an explanation of what the word refers to; there's thus no reason for treating it as a separate entity, except for what you're doing, which is attempting to draw an arbitrary distinction in order to differentiate your behavior from behavior that you can offer no defense of. If I compare something to a stone (like Bob Dylan or Bob Seger) what I'm saying is in some respects its characteristics are akin to those typical of a stone. If the association is negative, I'm saying that there are negative attributes that are typical of stone. If I do it with a group of people, instead of a stone, what I'm saying is those negative attributes are true of that group of people.

You also argue that you're not actively insinuating any negative connotations with your use of words associated with homosexuality, which is true, in some cases, but we have to take into account context, colloquial meanings, and popular understanding. We're not talking about simply referring to things that are homosexual as homosexual, we're talking about actively using words that refer to homosexuals or homosexuality outside of the context of homosexuality to communicate something negative.

You also argue semantics, which I have to say is fiercely ironic given the amount of malapropism, homophone confusion, and misspelling you've committed in these sins against language you call posts. (One might even begin to wonder if you're not an expert on matters linguistic. 0_0) But rather than an empty appeal to qualifications, as you decided to make in your misbegotten attempt to wow me with your world experience (to which I reply: 1. you don't know me, 2. experience does not trump reason.), I'll actually address what you tried to put across: No, "gay" was not an alternative developed because people decided that "horse thief" was offensive. It entered acceptable parlance in the 20th century because "queer" and "homosexual" were considered derogatory and overly clinical, respectively. No, a sarcastic reference to the "mirthful" meaning of the word gay is not where using it as an insult comes from, and I defy you to provide a single piece of historical evidence to substantiate that claim. Gay is not a word homosexuals claimed so that they'd be associated with a positive word, or so that they'd have something to complain about. It was a euphemism dating back to the 17th century that entered regular use in the mid-20th century for lack of a better term- it had been in style guides and dictionaries referring to homosexuality for decades and the old use had almost completely fallen by the wayside long before it was co-opted as a pejorative. You are the one that's ignorant of the etymology of the word. Or should I say "benine to its comeabouts"?

No, it is absolutely NOT alright that people do not like gay people and consider it unnatural. There is decades of copious peer-reviewed, double-blind scientific research that demonstrates sexual orientation arises from natural causes, that it's not a reliable predictor of any non-sexual behaviors, and that it can't be reliably changed. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact that people like to pretend is a matter of opinion in order to justify their ignorance and prejudices. The idea that it's somehow okay to think something that's true is false is a harmful false equivalence designed to protect people's self-important ignorance, and, partly as a result of that protection of ignorance, globally people who've committed no crime are denied basic human rights, jailed, castrated, tortured, and executed. The tide of history has never been turned by "letting bygones be bygones" (which incidentally refers to things that happened in the past, for which a presently maintained attitude of discrimination and prejudice hardly qualifies)- ignorance is to be combated with the truth. Civil progress is not achieved by rolling over.

Did I drink underage? No. Have I ever smoked? No. Done drugs? Yes, but nothing illegal. Had sex or looked at porn before I was 18? Yes, but nothing illegal (it is not illegal for a minor to view or be in possession of pornography. In the eyes of the law, a minor is incapable of understanding the consequences of viewing pornography, which is why it's illegal to sell, distribute, or display it to them). Your point seems to be that saying something is wrong makes it more appealing. My point is that that doesn't make it not wrong, and if somebody's properly educated about why these things are considered wrong (and there are reasons), they're equipped to understand the consequences of their actions, and decide for themselves whether or not they should do it. Premarital sex was considered "wrong", but people looked at it, and decided there's nothing wrong with safe recreational sex between consenting, mindful people. Stoning adulterers to death was not considered "wrong", but people took some time to really consider that, and attitudes changed. They did not change because the people that still wanted to stone people to death retreated to a stance of, "You can't tell me what's right or wrong, and you're not going to stop me from stoning people by telling me it's bad," and everybody else just decided to live with it. They changed because of secular moral philosophy and rational discussion. Is the harm done by using homophobic slurs as generic insults comparable to stoning? Of course not. And you are perfectly free to decide for yourself if you want to keep using homophobic slurs as generic insults, but I think if any decent person gave proper consideration to what the potential ill effects that doing so can have on people that have done nothing to deserve it, they would at the very least take that information into consideration and reflect on the harm they might be causing. Understand: I don't expect anybody to stop. As a matter of fact, it's something I overlook periodically in my own behavior. But that's not a matter of it being okay to do, it's a manner of allowing myself the occasional transgression. It's not about banning it or eradicating it- it's about reducing the net harm caused by people who don't mean to be causing any harm by making them more aware of the effect their words have on people.

And no, saying norwegian is not a hate crime. A hate crime is an actual crime committed with a prejudiced motivation. Hate crime legislation is not to prevent people from using words that hurt people's feelings, it's to prevent using crime and physical violence as an intimidation tactic against a protected class. And again, you're assuming I want the words revoked, and I don't. I don't even have a problem with the words being used in most contexts- great strides have been made reclaiming the words "queer" and "homosexual", and symbols like the pink triangle (which started as a mark of shame from the holocaust). I have absolutely no problem with the words being used accurately, clinically, or positively- my problem is people taking those words and using their associations with a derided group of people to mean something hurtful. My problem is the climate of fear and hatred it creates. My problem is otherwise good people refusing to see reason, and choosing to continue to do harm, because it's easier than admitting their transgressions and changing their behavior. I don't expect the whole world to change. I just want people to understand there's a reason this kind of thing is treated as a problem. And maybe they'll change their behavior, and just one gay teen will go through less of a hell than I went through. Is that naive, arrogant, pushy? I don't think so. I think I'm doing what I can to help.

-->Slurpee~~~~

Also

Quote from: CranberryClock;1872877Why do you continue to make flash movies? Its not because your the best thing since sliced bread.

I'm clearly the best thing since sliced bread, come on.

Where can I learn to express myself with such clarity and poise? Strunk & White have nothing on this.

Love me some Slurpee.

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1872893Sadly, I am pretty sure at this point that it's that one. Disappointing too, I thought Cran was one of the good ones.

I am a good one. This is a debate forum. You probably don't know what side I am on ;-). All I do is play devils advocate to get people riled up.

Quote from: CranberryClock;1873292I am a good one. This is a debate forum. You probably don't know what side I am on ;-). All I do is play devils advocate to get people riled up.

Dumb.

the gay science

Funny story. Not an opinion but just something sorta related.

I was at an Eagles tailgate with my family.  The only people not going to the actual game were my cousin Jared, his boyfriend, my brother and I.  While we were there, my family had met some other family and was trying to get these two girls to hook up with us (my brother and I).  The girls were pretty trashy and neither of us really wanted to hook up with them.

When our family had gone to the game, those of us who weren't going decided to hang out at my brother's place for a bit.  On our way there, as soon as the girls were out of earshot, the first thing my cousin said was "Those girls make me glad I'm a horse thief."

It was funny and it made me think of this thread.

the filter really does that story justice

Is horse thief a word filter or just a joke or what? Because I am getting very confused.

Quote from: Sinister Clock;1875987Is horse thief a word filter or just a joke or what? Because I am getting very confused.

word filter.
'bundle of sticks' -> horse thief.

Quote from: Sinister Clock;1875987Is horse thief a word filter or just a joke or what? Because I am getting very confused.

Don't be a horse thief

(https://clockcrew.net/talk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadsideamerica.com%2Fattract%2Fimages%2Fmo%2FMOKANhorsethief_amy.jpg&hash=2769d5b28308b015d95c098671ea8a802e519d0f)

You mean you accidentally had sex with a man?

Quote from: RibsClock;1876093No I accidentally had sex with your mum thinking she was a man.

1.5/10

I doubt you can use such an archaic word in this day and age due to being used as modern slang to describe homosexuality.  So yeah, you can offend quite a bit of people because they don't know what you mean.

i get the arguments against using it to describe something negatively but i really don't care, it's like how i think slaughterhouses and the mass slaughter and packaging of animals as food is really fucked up, but i just ate in n out like 10 minutes ago. i like saying gay and i like eating meat.


no pun intended

Quote from: FileCabinetClock;1876497i like saying gay and i like eating meat.


no pun intended

hahahaha


and yeah unfortunately I have the same view on meat eating. I wish I could be a vegetarian but meat is just too god damn delicious. I could eat KFC buffalo snackers every day for the rest of my life.

Quote from: FloundermanClock;1876499hahahaha


and yeah unfortunately I have the same view on meat eating. I wish I could be a vegetarian but meat is just too god damn delicious. I could eat KFC buffalo snackers every day for the rest of my life.

dude did you ever try the KFC double down??

Quote from: FileCabinetClock;1876503dude did you ever try the KFC double down??

Yeah I did, I was expecting it to be a lot more than it was. It was good, sure, you cant go wrong with two pieces of chickenwith bacon and cheese, but I prefer the doubleicious. Seems the concept is more outrageous than the taste.

Its the gayest time of the year!

Quote from: FloundermanClock;1876499hahahaha


and yeah unfortunately I have the same view on meat eating. I wish I could be a vegetarian but meat is just too god damn delicious. I could eat KFC buffalo snackers every day for the rest of my life.

Keep eating meat, just change your purchasing habits.

Look for grass fed organic beef, cage-free chicken eggs, and if you can, free range farmed meat. When you put your money towards good, humane meat farming practices, you increase the market for those practices. Companies will continue to put animals through horrific conditions as long as it keeps the price low and people are buying it. But if you actively put dollars into the hands of their competition, you don't just prevent them from profiting off of you, you actively hurt their company/bad farming practices.

Unfortunately free range means little in the US.