tennessee supports bullying gays to suicide apparently

[EnglishClock]

Yeah, I mean if there's people here who weren't even aware of such a tragic and powerful epidemic, who are now at least a bit more informed, then that's a good thing. But now we're just derailing a thread by talking about derailing a thread.

[EnglishClock]

I wish slurpee was here. He'd be able to make such excellent contributions to both topics at hand.

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

I am okay with either discussion dominating this thread, carry on as you will.

[Topcatyo]

I wish slurpee was here. He'd be able to make such excellent contributions to both topics at hand.

truf

[Topcatyo]

also i think this thread had to be derailed because what are we going to debate about this subject?  "yeah, i totally support that tennessee asshole".  is anybody really going to make that counterpoint in this thread?

also why'd you delete your post, english?  i agree with it

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

I knew nobody was gonna debate it, I just figured this was a better place for a serious political thread than general.

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

homosexuality is both an incurable mental disorder and a choice fueled by the individual's own lack of morality and faith in godjesus.

[Topcatyo]

gyus i wish al l homsexes were dead.

blaks 2

[Marlin Clock]

Well last time I checked Christianity is founded upon nonviolence so if any christian sect is trying to make bullying legal then they aren't Christian. That's plain and simple. However I guess he is Baptist, and honestly the more I hear about Baptist beliefs the more they seem only Christian in that they believe in someone named Jesus Christ.

Also I feel you all are going to kill me over this but I'm still not wholly convinced on the idea of being purely "born" gay, what with what I've learned about how almost all aspects of an organisms behavior are determined by both their genetics and their environment, not just one or the other.

However, I will caution that this article is obviously biased and while I don't doubt that this guy is saying something wrong I doubt that this is doing anything to be impartial which really defeats the point of a news article to me. How does someone succumb to suicide? It's heartbreaking of course but that's clearly a decision. Also, by anti-education i am assuming that probably means anti-government enforced education or something like that which is more like what Ron Paul believes rather than literally against people being educated.

[GingeraleClock]

Well last time I checked Christianity is founded upon nonviolence so if any christian sect is trying to make bullying legal then they aren't Christian. That's plain and simple. However I guess he is Baptist, and honestly the more I hear about Baptist beliefs the more they seem only Christian in that they believe in someone named Jesus Christ.

bullying

aren't Christian.

I guess he is Baptist

Doing much better as a Catholic.

Also I feel you all are going to kill me over this but I'm still not wholly convinced on the idea of being purely "born" gay, what with what I've learned about how almost all aspects of an organisms behavior are determined by both their genetics and their environment, not just one or the other.

I failed to see how this conflicts with being "born gay"; even more so, what exactly you are trying to convey.

I'll pop a few things off to get the ball rolling: random genetic drift and mutation; darwinian ad hoc: aggression and population control amongst vary ratios of gender.

Also I feel you all are going to kill me over this

They're going to kill you for making debate points in the debate forum. This boy aint right!

[Topcatyo]

I heard the comparison once (I'm paraphrasing it now) that whether or not somebody is gay is the same as whether or not somebody likes tomatoes.

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

Well last time I checked Christianity is founded upon nonviolence so if any christian sect is trying to make bullying legal then they aren't Christian.

You do realize Yahweh was originally a war god right? The old testament is filled with crap supporting violence, even the new testament has it, from Jesus himself:

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.ââ,¬â,,¢Ã¢â,¬Â
-Luke 19:27

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
- Luke 22:36

In fact the bible denounces gays specifically

There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God
-Deuteronomy 23:17-18

And even claims they should be put to death

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
-Leviticus 20:13

I couldnt find much about gays in the new testament besides this which still seems to view homosexuality as something negative to be shunned

For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

Epistle to the Romans 1:26-27

And the old testament rulings are still in effect, anything jesus didnt specifically change is still there. Every "jot" and "title" (matt 5:17-9) still applies.

Also I feel you all are going to kill me over this but I'm still not wholly convinced on the idea of being purely "born" gay, what with what I've learned about how almost all aspects of an organisms behavior are determined by both their genetics and their environment, not just one or the other.

"Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice."
-Royal College of Psychiatrists

People may come out as gay or realize they were gay later in life, but thats usually because of repression of their actual sexuality.

However, I will caution that this article is obviously biased and while I don't doubt that this guy is saying something wrong I doubt that this is doing anything to be impartial which really defeats the point of a news article to me.

The writer is obviously against what he's reporting for. That does not make what he's saying any less right or what he's attacking any less deplorable.

How does someone succumb to suicide? It's heartbreaking of course but that's clearly a decision.

People are not in a very logical place when they are emotionally tormented to the point where they would commit suicide. Its almost never a decision made rationally while the person is under no serious mental duress.

Also, by anti-education i am assuming that probably means anti-government enforced education or something like that which is more like what Ron Paul believes rather than literally against people being educated.

From what I can tell from looking around he doesnt like the government funding public schools and he voted to overturn teacher bargaining rights.

[VCRClock]

Basically my opinion on the Bible is that it is a corrupted, disorganized, divisive, over- under- and mis-interpreted amalgamation of texts, some of which probably shouldn't have been collected to begin with, and it more or less never needs to be quoted at anybody without their consent for any reason. And it can be used to "prove" just about anything.

Now here's some hit-or-miss biblical junk you can skip over which basically serves to confirm most of what Flounderman said:

You do realize Yahweh was originally a war god right? The old testament is filled with crap supporting violence, even the new testament has it, from Jesus himself:

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.ââ,¬â,,¢Ã¢â,¬Â
-Luke 19:27

this is a quote from a mean guy in a parable and probably just represents judgement day

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
- Luke 22:36

of course, later in the chapter, jesus is all like "dick, you weren't supposed to actually use the sword"

In fact the bible denounces gays specifically

There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God
-Deuteronomy 23:17-18

Though the KJV is the money version, the NIV (not that I know shit about which Bible translation is the best) doesn't have the "sodomy" nuance, but fundamentally I'm not going to disagree with you on this one

And even claims they should be put to death

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
-Leviticus 20:13

I've always thought people were just misinterpreting the word "mankind" here, but I guess not. It's the Old Testament, so as far as wacko rules it's in good company; I won't bother arguing about whether it "still counts."

I couldnt find much about gays in the new testament besides this which still seems to view homosexuality as something negative to be shunned

For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

Epistle to the Romans 1:26-27

Somehow completely forgot about that passage, although I'm sure I had to read it at some point. Wikipedia sez that Romans is one of the letters most people believe were actually written by Paul, so good on you for that. I think there are some other places in the Epistles where Paul is anti-gay (or I might just be thinking of the anti-woman parts), some of which are in sections where authorship is disputed, which is why I looked this one up in the first place. Paul is kind of a crazy guy anyway. edit Actually, come to think of it, I think I remember Paul hating fornication with a passion, so maybe there's a lot more anti-gay material in the Epistles.

[buttplug]

everything in the bible is out of context.

OT is for ancient Jews, and the NT is a bunch of stuff from all different ancient Christian groups who all disagreed with each other. Paul would probably punch the writers of the other gospels in their faces.

Paul was actually pretty badass.

[PEANUTBUTTERCLOCK]

User was chilled for this post - Spamming that GIF in way too many threads

[F U Clock]

I think the better question than whether or not gay people are born that way or not is, does it matter?

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

I met someone who actually took the shellfish thing seriously once. It was pretty great.

[F U Clock]

The exact reason why it matters is because Leviticus says he who "lieth with a man as he lieth with a woman" "hath committed an abomination" and shall be put to death.

Despite how this was a law in Leviticus and not the Evangel, Christians started applying this in places to anyone who was homosexual. In the modern era, however, the debate came about that if homosexuality is a condition people are born with, then God made them that way and it would be unjust to punish them for it.

Because that logic is frankly pretty sound, some Christians then concluded that this must mean homosexuality is a choice, not a condition.

...all of this, mind you, failing to note that the condition of being attracted to people of the opposite sex is never specified anywhere in any book of the Bible, and that it is specifically the act of sodomy that's forbidden, and even that was part of Leviticus which Christianity believes was abrogated.

The other things that carry the same penalty in Leviticus:

• Jews or anyone else sacrificing their children to Moloch (this is one instance where it's specific that it's not just applied to Jews)
• Cursing your parents
• Committing adultery
• Having sex with your relatives and in-laws
• Beastiality
• Having sex with a man as you would with a woman
• Being a wizard
• Blaspheming
• Murder and Manslaughter

In other words, neither side on this actually really knows what they're arguing about, it's not whether or not homosexuality is a choice or a condition they're born with, it's whether or not you're allowed to have sex with the numerous people and things ancient Judaism says you can't have sex with. And Christians certainly don't think any of those other things are allowed either but at the same time I don't see them punishing people legally for working on the sabbath or saying "God damn" or eating shellfish either.

Yeah I mean I get all that jazz. I just mean when you really come down to it, does it delegitimize homosexuality if it isn't somehow inherent? It's a person's sexual preference, and why the Hell do we care what people's sexual preference is if it doesn't hurt anybody?

[buttplug]

I think a lot of these people would argue that if God did make them gay it was some kind of test, or that they should remain celibate or something.

[AMPEEEM]

yeah!