Muslims, Immigration, and Integration

[AlbinoClock]

So it seems things like this are becoming more and more common these days. Muslims immigrate to Western countries from war-torn or simply poverty-stricken Muslim majority countries with backward, oppressive laws and then the men lose their shit when their wives and children start enjoying their new-found freedom and the culture that comes with it. I don't think we should close our various doors to Muslim immigrants, but I think something should be done to ensure that the rights of women and children aren't being disregarded and to decrease the rate of honor-killings and culture-shock-related murders. I'm not exactly sure how to do that, though. Maybe some training videos and a statement of intent to integrate? I don't think people should be denied their native cultures across the board, but when it comes to encroaching on the rights of their families, I don't think that's acceptable.
 
Anyway, I'm interested in hearing your opinions.

[AbsintheClock]

This isn't the only thing I've heard of. I've heard of men beheading their daughters for wearing make up, and talking to boys. I think schools need to be more vigilant of abuse, because all too often there are obvious signs. (Bruises, bumps, marks, kid comes into school tired all the time etc etc) I think people have a right to raise their children the way they want to, but within reason. In other words it is reasonable for a father and mother to force their child to wear a hijab, but it's not ok to beat and threaten your child into submission. It's also not ok to kill people to save face, or to make a threat of bodily harm. I talked with my boss about it some, because he was born in Lebanon, and he's seen the culture firsthand. According to his account in more or less his words (botched English and all) "I tell you 90% of these muslim people are bullshit people. They kill anybody, they tell you what to do, but behind closed doors they do what they want. You find beer in their bedroom, but they take it away from the stores. You cannot trust people same of this." I don't know if the 90% thing is true, but I know he's some some really horrible shit that made him afraid enough for his life to come live in America. He's also told me that a lot of these people don't want to mix. Even in their own home countries they will kill people just for being christian and stepping into the Muslim parts. If they don't like your children, they will lie about them (usually something about breaking the blasphemy law) and try to have your child executed. I think it's a good thing to bring in a mix of cultures, but I also think we need to start looking more for immigrants who want to offer something to this country, and not just people who are running away from a brand of violence they help cultivate. America should have a no bullshit policy on domestic violence against women and children. Especially when it comes to immigrants.

[AbsintheClock]

By the way for the record, that 90% is my boss's words, and that's coming from living in an area near Beirut during the civil war. He probably did exaggerate it, but that's the kind of shock that he dealt with. I don't have any problem with Muslims coming into this country, but I do have a problem with people who think they can come into this country and bring violence with them by any means. As for the violence he witnessed in his area, and how he has described it to me is pretty shocking. I don't think we're doing a bad job overall of keeping assholes out, (people with a history of violence, ties to terror groups, ties to drug cartels, etc etc) but I also don't think we should be soft just because some self righteous asshole thinks it's racism.

The kind of culture you're talking about I see a lot in Boston. Everyone is shoulder to shoulder with each other, none of them believe the same thing. At the same time they eat in each others restaurants, shop in each others stores, and sit next to each other in the subway. And they can do all that without stabbing, bombing, raping, or yelling hateful shit at each other.

[Lump Clock]

I dated a young woman with Iran heritage for a while. She used to get beat a lot by her father for trying to live her own life, and even now after several years- as what you would presume to be an independent young woman, seeing as she owns her own apartment, car, and is quite successful getting her foot in the political door- still feels some kind of obligation to her abusive father. She claims it is to protect her little brother, but I have a feeling he is in no real danger (seeing as he is the son).

I wish I had more to offer on this topic of discussion, but I suppose a second hand experience will have to do.

[AstronautClock]

I hope they deny them the right to immigrate into the netherlands or any european nation

[AstronautClock]

I wouldnt mind so much if they didnt try to force their religion onto people and changing the laws to suit their religion. and also that they didnt cry so much about people making fun of their religion. deal with it they do it just the same

[miracle fruit]

i think muslims need to realize that every other religion stopped being crazy motherfuckers like a couple hundred years ago

[PolyhedronClock]

Oh please.

to be fair, they're not sincere and just do it to cash in on the lawsuits they reap.

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

Are there any horribly insane and evil buddhist sects? I wanna see one.

[miracle fruit]

Oh please.

did ribs just try to compare a hundred harmless ignorant idiots to millions of bonkers fucking crazy islamists hahaha

[miracle fruit]

ribs you are so dumb

[AbsintheClock]

Are there any horribly insane and evil buddhist sects? I wanna see one.

As the worst Buddhist ever, and probably the only Buddhist in the Clock Crew I'll go ahead and give you a few.

There are multiple cases of rape especially on children by monks, and there have been for probably thousands of years. The idea that it is or has always been a peaceful religion is bullshit too. Especially from places like Japan, Korea, Cambodia and Sri Lanka. Then you have to remember all the different martial arts that were created by Buddhist monks as a means to kill people not just to defend their temples, but sometimes for personal gain as well. Just the same there are plenty of Buddhists in foxholes fighting wars throughout history. Also if you're ever in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, be sure to check out the Tibetan Kapala which is made from a real human skull. Probably made from the skull of a serf. The history of Tibetan Buddhism is a bit fucked up at times too.

[AbsintheClock]

I hang out with you guys.

[AbsintheClock]

You know what the nice thing is about Buddhism? You can't put food poisoning on a necklace.

[AbsintheClock]

Siddartha died from food poisoning.

[FLOUNDERMAN_CLOCK]

forgive us our naughtyness and bring us eternal presents

[AlbinoClock]

Yeah we should just keep the other shit we arbitrarily ban like curse words and boobs on TV which totally aren't based on someone's overzealous conceptions of morality being made law...?

Look, the idea that "oh no Muslims are going to emigrate to Europe and convert it all to Shariah and start forcing our women to wear burqas and ban all our pork and and and" is silly. It's like all the folks from my country who are terrified that Atheists are going to ban Christmas, or Mexicans are going to force them all to speak Spanish.

The worst they'll manage is an annoying local ordinance or something like noise complaints against pig farmers or something stupid and ultimately futile. What you're talking about is a big friggin' law that affects a whole lot of innocent people in a really drastic life-changing way partially justified because some of them are "whiny".

The issue here is that people from both cultures are failing to approach this in a mature way, overlook prejudices of association, and at least tolerate each other being in the same general vicinity.

Holy fuck Corpsegrinder, there are so many strawmen there you've got me thinking I'm in a corn field. First of all, I don't see anyone in this thread defending censorship, but I'm going to address that anyway because your conclusion is still ridiculous. Network TV is censored because for most of the time since their inception they've been broadcast via public airwaves and thus under the purview of the FCC.The FCC regulates what can and can't be done on public airwaves because they are public and there's a limited amount of bandwidth for broadcast channels. That means network stations are required to have news shows and can't say fuck or show titties. "Obscenity" considerations are made within the context of our culture. We don't have naked bodies or strong language on broadcast TV because in the United States there's a taboo against such things, if not an incredibly pervasive one. If you can't understand why we are a bit more willing to grapple with our own taboos than to worry about those of a backward culture half-way across the world, I don't really know where to begin. You're making an argument in favor of cultural relativism to dismiss our entitlement to our own culture. It's like some weird pseudoliberal inversion of xenophobia and it's bollocks. Multiculturalism does not mean that the taboos of other cultures supersede the freedom of our own people to disregard them in their own lives.
 
Now I can certainly look at the idea that Muslims are going to "take over the country", and yes it's rather absurd. It's also got fuck all to do with the topic at hand, which is that there's a rejection of integration going on with Muslim immigrants, and the result is that people are behaving in ways that we consider detestable. We're talking about countries where, again, women can't drive or vote or go into public on their own. Those aren't our values, and they're not the values we want to promote in our society. It's not a matter of forced conversion, it's a matter of eroding the progression of feminism and humanism due to some silly misapplication of multiculturalist tolerance. That is the issue. Open misogyny isn't something we should tolerate.
 
And yeah, there's crazy in all religions. That doesn't negate any part of this problem. What exactly is wrong with having an instructional video to show Muslim immigrants explaining that their women and children have rights and even autonomy? Why is it better to allow the men to put their rights over the rights of their families with no public censure or impetus to change?

As the worst Buddhist ever, and probably the only Buddhist in the Clock Crew I'll go ahead and give you a few.

I'm sort of a Buddhist. I dig the first three Noble Truths, but people get a bit caught up in their Eightfold pursuit of the fourth. I don't interpret anything supernaturally, though.
   
Also you forgot to mention Tibet's terrible caste system.

[AlbinoClock]

You're making an argument in favor of cultural relativism to dismiss our entitlement to our own culture. It's like some weird pseudoliberal inversion of xenophobia and it's bollocks. Multiculturalism does not mean that the taboos of other cultures supersede the freedom of our own people to disregard them in their own lives.

Sorry but I don't agree that our culture's taboos are arbitrarily better. You don't either, hence why you disagree with so many of them. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, and neither of us agree with fanatical Muslims, but the idea that we shouldn't let them in because of that is, again, stupid hypocrisy.

Okay, I think we're getting close to the crux of the disagreement, and that's far more interesting than just telling you you're wrong. I don't think that our culture's taboos are arbitrarily better than any other culture's. I think that our culture's taboos are our culture's taboos. There are many of them I disagree with and quite a number that I do agree with, but they are the taboos of the culture that I inhabit. Islamic countries half way across the world have their own cultures and their own very different taboos. Those taboos and our taboos are conflicted, and that can be just fine as long as one culture doesn't seek to impose their standards on the other. Cultures take time to change and it's a messy process, it's sometimes best not to try to force progress in cultures that aren't your own before they're ready. Education is good where it can happen, but sometimes you just have to wait for the people to decide something is wrong themselves and take the reins. We can't force-feed feminism to misogynistic theocracies, but we can sure as shit make it clear that that kind of crap isn't tolerated here.
 
Did you misinterpret what I was saying before or is there some part of that that you genuinely disagree with?
 
And no, I'm not talking about restricting belief and freedom of expression, I'm talking about cracking down on abuse and showing an instructional video, and I described what it would be about. It would be an explanation that women and adult children have autonomy and their actions cannot be dictated by their husbands or fathers. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a video, it could just be someone explaining it to them and having them sign something. It's an important difference in the culture that people need to be prepared for. A bit of instruction on some major cultural differences that have gotten a lot of people killed and an assurance that everyone's basic human rights will be upheld hardly constitutes the erasure of any freedom. We respect freedoms that do not encroach on the freedoms of others, not the freedom to be abusive and controlling. If a woman wants to obey her husband as if he were her master then let her, but by no means should she feel that she has nowhere to turn, and by no means should he feel that she's obligated to behave like someone with no rights of her own.

[AlbinoClock]

It's not just the law though, it's the spirit of the law. They can't abuse their spouses and children because people are supposed to have a right to autonomy. They should be told the implications of the differences and agree to that, because apparently it gets people killed.

[AlbinoClock]

To me, this is kind of like "Oh, you're an atheist? Then you need to watch this video about the evils of communism before we let you immigrate." which could be justified with most of the same arguments. If you feel indignant and insulted by that, well yeah anyone would.

That's silly. Atheism doesn't have countries built around its sacred laws in which women are treated as lesser beings with no rights of their own.