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More than 1 school shooting per week in the land of the free

Farted by Thor, January 22, 2013, 02:40:54 PM

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FamineClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937512See my previous comment on murder rates in the US. It's not guns, it's poverty and racism.
A lot of countries have poverty and racism, yet their murderates are lower. I'm not saying guns are the sole perpetrator, the classic argument "Well if he didn't kill them with guns he'd kill them with a cheese-grater". It's just that it's hard to kill a cinema or school class with a knife.

I still find no purpose of arming civilians. Especially not with automatic rifles.

AbsintheClock

Quote from: FamineClock;1937515I still find no purpose of arming civilians. Especially not with automatic rifles.

That's because you've never owned one, you've never been raised with one, and you wouldn't know what to do with a gun. In other words you don't have any credibility when it comes to guns beyond what you've learned from the telly. The fact is there are some people in this world who want guns, have guns, and use them for their own private purposes. It's a constitutional mandate that you cannot take guns away from the American people.

And yes other countries have poverty, but nowhere else in the world is the gap so wide in a country where common citizens are allowed to own guns. What a lot of people don't realize is that the most common cases of gun violence are caused by illegal guns and stolen guns. To think that you can just stuff Pandora back into the box without any problems is silly.

Slurpee

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937516To think that you can just stuff Pandora back into the box without any problems is silly.

Pandora wasn't in Pandora's box, all the ills of mankind were.

Stuffing Pandora into her own box would be confusing and psychotic, and probably let elpis out.

Slurpee

Okay I'll bite: didn't the U.K. stuff Pandora into her box in 1997 and don't they have the lowest rates of firearm homicide in the world outside of Hong Kong and Singapore?

Edit: also,
Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937516That's because you've never owned one, you've never been raised with one, and you wouldn't know what to do with a gun. In other words you don't have any credibility when it comes to guns beyond what you've learned from the telly.
this is a weak assed explanation. My grampa taught me how to fire a .22 when I was like ten, and I don't understand the purpose of private citizens owning firearms, either, besides them being totally badical and people wanting to own them and them being a constitutional right, none of which are actual reasons.

Marlin Clock

From an ecological perspective there is still a salient point to be made for allowing people to own hunting rifles and shotguns for recreational purposes to help reduce the population of animals which we've removed their natural predators. AR-15's and handguns, however, are simply not practical for hunting.

Thor

In areas with less guns, there are generally the same number of assaults and robberies, but less of them use guns. Since assaults and robberies that involve guns are much more likely to result in a death, that means that means that countries with more guns have more fatalities than injuries in assaults.

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937538From an ecological perspective there is still a salient point to be made for allowing people to own hunting rifles and shotguns for recreational purposes to help reduce the population of animals which we've removed their natural predators. AR-15's and handguns, however, are simply not practical for hunting.

I never understood why we don't let animal populations just naturalize themselves. If deers overbreed and eat up all the food, resulting in mass death of deers, wouldn't that solve the deer overpopulation problem? They would adapt in a few generations to be less I'm a edgy teen, or the wolf population could rebound.

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937512Where's the adjusted odds ratio for being poor and black? Because I'm pretty sure that creams all the others to the extent that it makes them more or less irrelevant.

Well, if you actually looked at my link...
Being poor makes you about 4.4 times as likely to get shot. Being black makes you something like 4 times as likely to get shot. That's a lot, but it doesn't just make the FACT that owning a gun at all makes you statically more likely to get shot to death. Especially when you consider that the majority of gun owners in America are, in fact, white people. This is a statistic that I pulled out of my ass.
Quote from: MafiaMettaurWhat the hell is with that shit you posted? You know what, I'm joining the Locks, just to stop stuff like you!
Quote from: polyhedronclockYou're a fucking clock, what else do you have?
To be fair, you don't have anything. Clocks are just machines that tick.

Marlin Clock

Quote from: Thor;1937548I never understood why we don't let animal populations just naturalize themselves. If deers overbreed and eat up all the food, resulting in mass death of deers, wouldn't that solve the deer overpopulation problem? They would adapt in a few generations to be less I'm a edgy teen, or the wolf population could rebound.

You have to think about it on an ecosystem scale. If the deer, natural generalists, deplete their food resource, that's only going to negatively effect every other animal that also uses that resource. It could threaten vulnerable species in the long run. Plus, with the stigma in place, their slow population growth, their need for wide expanses in a nation already lousy with land fragmentation, and the NIMBY ignorance of the average American, it would take a long time for wolves to become as populous as they were on our arrival. We have to take up the responsibility of displacing them and becoming the deer's new main predator.

FamineClock

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937516That's because you've never owned one, you've never been raised with one, and you wouldn't know what to do with a gun. In other words you don't have any credibility when it comes to guns beyond what you've learned from the telly. The fact is there are some people in this world who want guns, have guns, and use them for their own private purposes. It's a constitutional mandate that you cannot take guns away from the American people.

And yes other countries have poverty, but nowhere else in the world is the gap so wide in a country where common citizens are allowed to own guns. What a lot of people don't realize is that the most common cases of gun violence are caused by illegal guns and stolen guns. To think that you can just stuff Pandora back into the box without any problems is silly.

That's still not an argument for guns. You just told me what people whom already own them think and why they're allowed to do so. You could take away "Guns" and add in "Racial Segregation", just because people expect it, were brought up with it and it's written in some law text does not make it a good idea.

AbsintheClock

Quote from: Thor;1937548I never understood why we don't let animal populations just naturalize themselves. If deers overbreed and eat up all the food, resulting in mass death of deers, wouldn't that solve the deer overpopulation problem? They would adapt in a few generations to be less I'm a edgy teen, or the wolf population could rebound.

Have you ever been around a place where deer overpopulate? Car accidents go way up, plant vegitation goes down, and nature just goes to shit. As for the wolves they're being bred out by coyotes. You want a bunch of coyotes running around?

FamineClock

Quote from: AbsintheClock;1937600Have you ever been around a place where deer overpopulate? Car accidents go way up, plant vegitation goes down, and nature just goes to shit. As for the wolves they're being bred out by coyotes. You want a bunch of coyotes running around?

I'm from the north of Europa, yes we have people whom get hunting certifications and hold moose populations down and I'd bet we have much more caraccidents due to wildlife due to our thick pineforests.

Also that's a very far fetched arguement, how many automatic rifles, handsguns etc. do you seriously think people use to hunt?
As I said before, there still is no arguement for arming civilians with automatic rifles or guns. Hunting wildlife can be done with regulations.

My point is that sure you can never truly stop terrorism or folks whom are determined to murder a lot of people. But people bellow the age of 24 would very rarely be able to build up a network of contacts to get the neccary tools, whilst in the US it's not hard for a frustrated and pubertal young man/woman to get their hands on the right tools to murder a lot of people very fast.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: FamineClock;1937515A lot of countries have poverty and racism, yet their murderates are lower. I'm not saying guns are the sole perpetrator, the classic argument "Well if he didn't kill them with guns he'd kill them with a cheese-grater". It's just that it's hard to kill a cinema or school class with a knife.

I still find no purpose of arming civilians. Especially not with automatic rifles.

A lot of countries do not have the kind of gang-infested crime-ridden ghettos that we do, and we have them because of the extreme poverty resulting from institutional racism.
 
This isn't about automatic rifles, they're highly regulated in the US. This is about semi-automatic firearms. The difference being that automatic firearms are able to fire continuously with a single squeeze of the trigger, whereas semi-automatic firearms simply reload themselves, allowing for more rapid single-firing. Not only is this a feature found on most pistols you'll see, but it's incredibly useful for, say, shooting at pests, or for certain kinds of hunting, or self-defense. If you're in grizzly country and one of them decides it wants a piece of you you're not going to want to sit there fucking around with a bolt action or reloading a revolver. If your first shot misses and you have to sit there reloading on your own you may well not get a second shot. When people talk about "assault weapons" they're just talking about semi-automatic rifles with some of the cosmetic features of automatic weapons. They don't oppose them because they know something about them, they oppose them because they look scary.
 

Quote from: Slurpee;1937536Okay I'll bite: didn't the U.K. stuff Pandora into her box in 1997 and don't they have the lowest rates of firearm homicide in the world outside of Hong Kong and Singapore?

Yeah, a tiny island nation lacking both gang-infested urban wastelands and armed militias actively preparing for the day the government rides into town to take their guns is totally comparable to the UK on the topic of gun control. Totally.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: Thor;1937548In areas with less guns, there are generally the same number of assaults and robberies, but less of them use guns. Since assaults and robberies that involve guns are much more likely to result in a death, that means that means that countries with more guns have more fatalities than injuries in assaults.

Exactly, countries like Switzerland.
 
QuoteI never understood why we don't let animal populations just naturalize themselves. If deers overbreed and eat up all the food, resulting in mass death of deers, wouldn't that solve the deer overpopulation problem? They would adapt in a few generations to be less I'm a edgy teen, or the wolf population could rebound.

Because to start there would be deer fucking everywhere. In the roads, in your garden, all over your yard. You'd stop being like "oh cool, deer" and start thinking "fucking deer". They're going to shit everywhere, ruin everyone's cars, and leave their fucking dead bodies all over the place. Of course, it would never, ever get to that point, because humans are predators and deer taste really good, so the moment over-population got to be a remote problem people would grab their guns and have dinner. As it stands we have regulations and licenses so that people don't straight up clear them out because they taste so fucking good.

 
QuoteWell, if you actually looked at my link...
Being poor makes you about 4.4 times as likely to get shot. Being black makes you something like 4 times as likely to get shot. That's a lot, but it doesn't just make the FACT that owning a gun at all makes you statically more likely to get shot to death. Especially when you consider that the majority of gun owners in America are, in fact, white people. This is a statistic that I pulled out of my ass.

Okay, I admittedly only really gave that a cursory glance. Now that I have taken a bit more time, though, I have to wonder if you read it given the context you've posted it in. That article is about how guns are actually fairly safe to have in your house. Read it, it makes a great argument against exactly what you're saying.

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937538AR-15's and handguns, however, are simply not practical for hunting.

Automatic rifles are good for shooting at pests, and both are good for close-quarters self-defense. You just need to be a responsible gun owner. You keep the shit locked up.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1937538AR-15's and handguns, however, are simply not practical for hunting.

Automatic rifles are good for shooting at pests, and both are good for close-quarters self-defense. You just need to be a responsible gun owner. You keep the shit locked up.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: FamineClock;1937628My point is that sure you can never truly stop terrorism or folks whom are determined to murder a lot of people. But people bellow the age of 24 would very rarely be able to build up a network of contacts to get the neccary tools, whilst in the US it's not hard for a frustrated and pubertal young man/woman to get their hands on the right tools to murder a lot of people very fast.

This is completely untrue. You could use google and make a bomb with simple ingredients that you could probably buy within a few miles of your house if you don't already have most of it. You could be done with it by the morning. Anyone can do this. The fact that it happens so rarely speaks volumes about the lack of impulse (or at least restraint of that impulse) toward mass violence among the general populace. You don't need something semi-automatic to slaughter unarmed human beings in a room. And again, I know you haven't had the opportunity to read my other comment when I'm writing this but I want to emphasize that this is not about automatic weapons.

Slurpee

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937629Yeah, a tiny island nation lacking both gang-infested urban wastelands and armed militias actively preparing for the day the government rides into town to take their guns is totally comparable to the UK on the topic of gun control. Totally.
Hey. We're comparing the socioeconomic patterns of first world nations across decades as they pertain to their respective cultures of violence, poverty, and historical relationship to firearms. It's several levels of abstraction away from simple cause and effect relationships. Don't talk to me like I'm a fucking idiot just because you believe two mitigating factors in a complex system are sufficient for dismissing the possibility of similar outcomes and I believe as a nationwide policy it could be implemented intelligently as to diminish potential increased criminal repercussions. Douchebag.

AbsintheClock


AlbinoClock

Quote from: Slurpee;1937644Hey. We're comparing the socioeconomic patterns of first world nations across decades as they pertain to their respective cultures of violence, poverty, and historical relationship to firearms. It's several levels of abstraction away from simple cause and effect relationships. Don't talk to me like I'm a fucking idiot just because you believe two mitigating factors in a complex system are sufficient for dismissing the possibility of similar outcomes and I believe as a nationwide policy it could be implemented intelligently as to diminish potential increased criminal repercussions. Douchebag.

Cry about it bitch.

Slurpee

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1937672Cry about it bitch.

At last we've pared your arguments down to their sole substantive component.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: Slurpee;1937674At last we've pared your arguments down to their sole substantive component.

Are you okay Slurpee? You seem uncharacteristically mad today. Or are you really just that anti-gun that it makes you emotional?

Slurpee

Is that really how I post when I've lost emotional control? Jesus Christ I'm fucking glorious.