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Does God exist?

Farted by AbsintheClock, September 20, 2011, 12:36:56 PM

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AlbinoClock

Quote from: RibsClock;1879020Now listen here joe you know the rules don' make me have ta bap ya

No, seriously. If you insert God into the big bang theory and pretend it's still the same, you're full of shit. You're making up nonsense.

QuoteSeems a bit of a leap, how do you figure?

Because anyone who inflicts that on someone else is a monster, not benevolent.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879023No, seriously. If you insert God into the big bang theory and pretend it's still the same, you're full of shit. You're making up nonsense.



Because anyone who inflicts that on someone else is a monster, not benevolent.

Science hasn't proven that God didn't create the big bang. There's definitely room for God in the big bang theory.  You have chosen to believe in the Godless big bang. It does not mean that those who believe God had something to do with it are full of shit.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879024Science hasn't proven that God didn't create the big bang. There's definitely room for God in the big bang theory.  You have chosen to believe in the Godless big bang. It does not mean that those who believe God had something to do with it are full of shit.

I don't think you know how science works. You don't just insert shit into a theory because it "could" fit there. Nowhere in any paper demonstrating that such a thing happened has anyone said anything about God. You can believe in God and also believe that the big bang happened, but you can't just insert your shit into it and have it be the same thing. When the pope says it's ok for Catholics to believe in the big bang as long as God caused it, he's not advocating the actual scientific theory or the pursuit of knowledge, he's trying to co-opt it and draw a picture of God on the side.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879032I don't think you know how science works. You don't just insert shit into a theory because it "could" fit there. Nowhere in any paper demonstrating that such a thing happened has anyone said anything about God. You can believe in God and also believe that the big bang happened, but you can't just insert your shit into it and have it be the same thing. When the pope says it's ok for Catholics to believe in the big bang as long as God caused it, he's not advocating the actual scientific theory or the pursuit of knowledge, he's trying to co-opt it and draw a picture of God on the side.

It is a Christian belief that God created the universe. A Christian decides to believe in the big bang theory. Is it really so terrible that he believes God created the big bang? How is it any different than believing that it happened on its own? Science hasn't proven it either way.

It might seem bastardizing to science to fit its ideas with your own but everyone does this. Everone has a variety of theories and ideas that they believe is true and their brain attempts to assemble it all together. That's how the human mind works. Brains don't like uncertainty or conflicting ideas.

AlbinoClock

It's not "so terrible", but a thing doesn't have to be terrible to be totally out of place. The big bang does not include God, therefore including God renders it different from the big bang. If you want to ignore or modify scientific discoveries before adjusting your belief to compensate for them, that's your business, but it's not the genuine article and you shouldn't expect people out here in the real world to pretend that it is.

And as far as how brains function, that means we try to work around it. You don't just go "oh well my brain is lying to me to try to fit contradictory information, I'd best just let it rather than trying to correct it".

You can make all the emotional appeals about Christians having the right to believe whatever nonsense they want that you like, it doesn't change a thing. It's still bullshit to insert unrelated ideas into scientific theories and then say you believe them as long as those modifications are made. When you decide it's ok to just make a priori assumptions, you're not an advocate of science.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879039It's not "so terrible", but a thing doesn't have to be terrible to be totally out of place. The big bang does not include God, therefore including God renders it different from the big bang. If you want to ignore or modify scientific discoveries before adjusting your belief to compensate for them, that's your business, but it's not the genuine article and you shouldn't expect people out here in the real world to pretend that it is.

And as far as how brains function, that means we try to work around it. You don't just go "oh well my brain is lying to me to try to fit contradictory information, I'd best just let it rather than trying to correct it".

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing in the first paragraph.

As for the second, of course you should always try to challenge your own ideas and worldview, but I feel that believing in God and the Big Bang at the same time is perfectly valid and that the two aren't in direct competition with each other.

AlbinoClock

There's nothing wrong at all with believing in God and the big bang at the same time, but when the Pope tells all the Catholics that they're allowed to believe in the big bang as long as God caused it, he's telling them they're not allowed to believe the scientific theory as it stands without adding more shit on top of it. This is not advocating scientific advancement, it's co-opting it.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879045There's nothing wrong at all with believing in God and the big bang at the same time, but when the Pope tells all the Catholics that they're allowed to believe in the big bang as long as God caused it, he's telling them they're not allowed to believe the scientific theory as it stands without adding more shit on top of it. This is not advocating scientific advancement, it's co-opting it.

Well it is a core belief of Christianity that God created the universe. The idea of the big bang without God having to do with it contradicts a pretty big part of Christianity.

Christianity kind of screws itself over by being so reliant on certain events happening, like God creating the universe, Jesus being the son of God and being reborn, Mary being a virgin etc. In order to maintain faith, one has to figure out how it all fits into the current scientific world. This is why Christianity always gets pissed at a new scientific development (earth revolves around the sun). It's the nature of the faith.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879046Well it is a core belief of Christianity that God created the universe. The idea of the big bang without God having to do with it contradicts a pretty big part of Christianity.

Christianity kind of screws itself over by being so reliant on certain events happening, like God creating the universe, Jesus being the son of God and being reborn, Mary being a virgin etc. In order to maintain faith, one has to figure out how it all fits into the current scientific world. This is why Christianity always gets pissed at a new scientific development (earth revolves around the sun). It's the nature of the faith.

Yes, it most certainly is, and it most certainly does. That's not an argument for why adding God to the big bang somehow also leaves it intact, though, it's an argument for why Christianity is obviously nonsense.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879047Yes, it most certainly is, and it most certainly does. That's not an argument for why adding God to the big bang somehow also leaves it intact, though, it's an argument for why Christianity is obviously nonsense.

It's fairly nonsense. I usually just ignore that part of Christianity and focus more on it's philosophical messages, where I believe it has much more to bring to the table.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879048It's fairly nonsense. I usually just ignore that part of Christianity and focus more on it's philosophical messages, where I believe it has much more to bring to the table.

What philosophical messages do you see Christianity as having? Also, if the God stuff is all bollocks, why should the philosophical messages in the bible be emphasized over those of any other writings?

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879049What philosophical messages do you see Christianity as having? Also, if the God stuff is all bollocks, why should the philosophical messages in the bible be emphasized over those of any other writings?

The biggest message I see in the bible is "Love thy neighbor" which in essence means love everybody. At it's core it's one of the most anti-war religions (and one of the most hippie religions). The New Testament is pretty much a bunch of parables that reinforce this message. A lot of the new testament is also random stuff that has little to do with Jesus and more to do with converting the audience of the book too.

The thing is that most of the technical stuff was added long after the Romans made Christianity their state religion. This is when people began to go to war "for God". Subsequent popes added stuff like infallibility and conception as a holy act which was never really covered by Jesus at all. The reason being that Jesus was much more concerned with "Love thy neighbor" and fighting injustices.

I find that a large part of Christianity today is based on past power politics and a fear of change. Every once in a while a pope "updates" Christianity, but it's remarkable how conservative it is as a religion when Jesus was such a rebel.

EDIT: So in response to your question, I think that the philosophical elements should be emphasized because I believe that that is what the prophet of the religion was emphasizing.

Marlin Clock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879039It's not "so terrible", but a thing doesn't have to be terrible to be totally out of place. The big bang does not include God, therefore including God renders it different from the big bang. If you want to ignore or modify scientific discoveries before adjusting your belief to compensate for them, that's your business, but it's not the genuine article and you shouldn't expect people out here in the real world to pretend that it is.
Once again, the creator of the Big Bang Theory was a catholic priest, so for all intents and purposes it probably did include God, at least in that with his belief of Him he believed that God created the universe. Does that mean your atheistic idea of the big bang theory is then made inherently invalid by your logic?
Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879053The biggest message I see in the bible is "Love thy neighbor" which in essence means love everybody. At it's core it's one of the most anti-war religions (and one of the most hippie religions). The New Testament is pretty much a bunch of parables that reinforce this message. A lot of the new testament is also random stuff that has little to do with Jesus and more to do with converting the audience of the book too.
I would heartily agree with this. I constantly tell people that hate and selfishness are clearly forbidden in the bible. There's a great message there but there's something that some people just don't get.

QuoteThe thing is that most of the technical stuff was added long after the Romans made Christianity their state religion. This is when people began to go to war "for God". Subsequent popes added stuff like infallibility and conception as a holy act which was never really covered by Jesus at all. The reason being that Jesus was much more concerned with "Love thy neighbor" and fighting injustices.
Okay well that's not really true. There's scripture that deals directly with that. I'm not sure if you're using conception purely in abortion terms? In that case it's simply a belief that all human life holds value and once again that's territory for another thread. I'm not going to say that people haven't exploited the faith for evil though, that would be absolutely preposterous.

QuoteI find that a large part of Christianity today is based on past power politics and a fear of change. Every once in a while a pope "updates" Christianity, but it's remarkable how conservative it is as a religion when Jesus was such a rebel.
I suppose at this point maybe we should separate Catholicism from Protestantism because those really are two very different bodies. You can't use the pope for all Christianity.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879053The biggest message I see in the bible is "Love thy neighbor" which in essence means love everybody.

EDIT: So in response to your question, I think that the philosophical elements should be emphasized because I believe that that is what the prophet of the religion was emphasizing.

Ok, I get that. If the prophet's message is the only part of the religion that you find value in though, why associate yourself with it? As an atheist I still agree that it would be pretty great if everyone could get along. I'm not a complete pacifist, but I do agree that universal love is a big step in the right direction. I also think that the story of Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield in the Bhagavad Gita is very insightful, and that the parables in the Tao te Ching are absolutely sublime. That doesn't mean I literally believe in Krishna, though. What keeps you from identifying as secular?
 
Quote from: Marlin Clock;1879106Once again, the creator of the Big Bang Theory was a catholic priest, so for all intents and purposes it probably did include God, at least in that with his belief of Him he believed that God created the universe. Does that mean your atheistic idea of the big bang theory is then made inherently invalid by your logic?

Whether or not he believed that God caused it is irrelevant, what is relevant is that no evidence that backs up the big bang theory necessitates the existence of God. Even if God does exist and every scientist that's worked on the big bang believes in him, he's not part of the theory unless he is explicitly. To say "you can believe in the big bang as long as you add other shit that isn't already there" isn't the same as saying flat out you can believe in the big bang. At any rate, the Pope's decision is based on his own infallibility, not the scientific method, so the method of arrival at that belief is not based in science either.

Marlin Clock

I just really don't get where this logic is coming from.
To listen to the Pope, you are Catholic. To be Catholic, you believe that God is maker of the Heaven and the Earth, of all things visible and invisible. If you believe in the big bang theory, you should naturally believe that God created the universe through the big bang. If you don't, then you do not believe that god is the ultimate creator and do not follow Catholic doctrine in the first place so why would you be listening to the pope anyway.

It really cannot be simpler.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1879106Okay well that's not really true. There's scripture that deals directly with that. I'm not sure if you're using conception purely in abortion terms? In that case it's simply a belief that all human life holds value and once again that's territory for another thread. I'm not going to say that people haven't exploited the faith for evil though, that would be absolutely preposterous.
I meant conception in general, but I must've missed that part of the bible I guess.

Quote from: marlinI suppose at this point maybe we should separate Catholicism from Protestantism because those really are two very different bodies. You can't use the pope for all Christianity.
You're right, I realized after I posted this that I was not using the right words there. I went to a Catholic school so you can understand how that has messed with my head.
 
Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879107Ok, I get that. If the prophet's message is the only part of the religion that you find value in though, why associate yourself with it? As an atheist I still agree that it would be pretty great if everyone could get along. I'm not a complete pacifist, but I do agree that universal love is a big step in the right direction. I also think that the story of Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield in the Bhagavad Gita is very insightful, and that the parables in the Tao te Ching are absolutely sublime. That doesn't mean I literally believe in Krishna, though. What keeps you from identifying as secular?
Haha well at this point I should probably point out that I'm agnostic. In the Eastern world I believe that religion is more like what you describe; you don't have to strictly identify yourself with a faith, but you draw from Buddhism, Taoism etc. I very much prefer to live this way.

I think there are several good reasons to identify oneself as Christian, however, even if one doesn't necessarily agree with their denominations beliefs and ideas. There is a great sense of community in a church. Christians are often called to do volunteer work, and being a part of a church is a great motivator to do those things. It is also a great place to go if you feel lost in life. Church is reassuring. Not everyone wants to be a pursuer of greater knowledge, and Christianity is a great religion to go to if you need some good moral guidelines to get you through. That's not to say that Christianity is a religion for dumb people, rather that it can provide a lot of comfort for those with more hectic, worse-off lives.

buttplug

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879038It is a Christian belief that God created the universe. A Christian decides to believe in the big bang theory. Is it really so terrible that he believes God created the big bang? How is it any different than believing that it happened on its own? Science hasn't proven it either way.

They can believe what they want. I just don't want them to say that a deity initiating the big bang is just as scientifically sound.
Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879053The biggest message I see in the bible is "Love thy neighbor" which in essence means love everybody.

Right, but I don't see how Christianity is helpful in this regard. The Golden Rule can be practiced by someone who has never heard of any deities because he knows how his actions affect others. Including religion in the matter just confuses things. Example:
Quote23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, ââ,¬Å"Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!ââ,¬Â 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

Shouldn't Eli have just turned the other cheek?

AlbinoClock

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879110Haha well at this point I should probably point out that I'm agnostic. In the Eastern world I believe that religion is more like what you describe; you don't have to strictly identify yourself with a faith, but you draw from Buddhism, Taoism etc. I very much prefer to live this way.

I think there are several good reasons to identify oneself as Christian, however, even if one doesn't necessarily agree with their denominations beliefs and ideas. There is a great sense of community in a church. Christians are often called to do volunteer work, and being a part of a church is a great motivator to do those things. It is also a great place to go if you feel lost in life. Church is reassuring. Not everyone wants to be a pursuer of greater knowledge, and Christianity is a great religion to go to if you need some good moral guidelines to get you through. That's not to say that Christianity is a religion for dumb people, rather that it can provide a lot of comfort for those with more hectic, worse-off lives.

Ok, so for you it's more of a community thing than a belief thing? Do you expect you'd be just as happy if you lived in a Taoist community or like a Sufi community or something?

Quote from: Marlin Clock;1879109I just really don't get where this logic is coming from.
To listen to the Pope, you are Catholic. To be Catholic, you believe that God is maker of the Heaven and the Earth, of all things visible and invisible. If you believe in the big bang theory, you should naturally believe that God created the universe through the big bang. If you don't, then you do not believe that god is the ultimate creator and do not follow Catholic doctrine in the first place so why would you be listening to the pope anyway.

But what happens when we figure out what state the big bang came out of? What happens when we figure out how the state "before" that came to be? Why should you involve God's hand directly in the big bang any more than gravity or fire? Does God need to intervene every time I light a match? Every time a star goes nova? Every time a child is born? What about the children of insects and bacteria?
 
Quote from: Buttplug;1879121They can believe what they want. I just don't want them to say that a deity initiating the big bang is just as scientifically sound.

This is exactly what I was getting at, though I'm not so much concerned about what they say as pointing out that what they say doesn't change the fact of the matter.

AmberArachnidClock

Quote from: AlbinoClock;1879528Ok, so for you it's more of a community thing than a belief thing? Do you expect you'd be just as happy if you lived in a Taoist community or like a Sufi community or something?
Well like I said, I'm agnostic, I appreciate the community part of christianity but it's not really my thing. I do really dig the philosophy though.

AlbinoClock

Quote from: SatelliteClock;1879537Well like I said, I'm agnostic, I appreciate the community part of christianity but it's not really my thing. I do really dig the philosophy though.

But it's so generic, and accompanied by such unnecessary bigotry.