Quote from: FloundermanClock;1265265Most were rationalized , related, or inspired by religion in some way. It was pretty much all of them until recent centuries.

How could you make such claims with certainty?
I could just as easily say that most religious wars were rationalized, related, or inspired by government.

Ok, so... beacuse you think a text is to boring to read you are ready to condamn anyone who has read it because?...

No, I'm just saying you think I haven't read any of it and you assume I'm going off of hearsay.

Yes. Yes I have. My father is a muslim, his other family is aswell. They are all kind people, aswell as their entire village and the entire country. (My parents divorced when I was very young. We get along just fine.)
I lived a year in Saudi Arabia, the heart of islam.
Do I know what I speak of? Oh yes, oh very yes. I have seen the horrors of fundamentalism first hand.
But I do not give myself right to damn them for what I consider wrong. They only do what they think is right, when do know it is not right it is not the korans fault that they twist it.
I have seen the works of man, but I can tell you it is never because of the Koran. For every fault in the koran, for every terrorist killing in Allah's name. There is infinite cases of help, solidarism, forgiveness and community brought forth by the koran.

Well I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but how can you not associate the horrors of what you see in an Islamic state with what the Qur'an preaches? I'll agree that the Old Testament teaches a lot of backwards things, but governments aren't run by it, and it's not nearly to the degree of the Qur'an. Even if it was to the same degree it wouldn't make it any more right.


I did not accuse you of anything, I merely asked a question.
Please restrain from plain insults, they do not enhance your arguments.

Sorry, the grammar you were using came off as condescending and  I'm use to  Brainchild jumping to the conclusion that I think Muslims are evil and should be persecuted. I've actually made several Iraq and Afghani friends in my time out here and while I respect their choice in religion, I believe that Islam is one of the most hate filled religions around.

Heh, well actually the only Zionist state left, Israel is pretty by the Good Old Book in their governmental dealings, but you're right if you mean in relation to Christianity, with the obvious exception of the Vatican City.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1265276Heh, well actually the only Zionist state left, Israel is pretty by the Good Old Book in their governmental dealings, but you're right if you mean in relation to Christianity, with the obvious exception of the Vatican City.

True, I didn't really think of those two; but you don't hear about stonings and people being hung for being non believers any more.

Quote from: RaBiDcLoCk;1265278True, I didn't really think of those two; but you don't hear about stonings and people being hung for being non believers any more.

Nope. The Late Great Pope John Paul II (he's in the process of being canonized, so that's his actual title), former Pope and thus ruler of Vatican City, was a great spreader of peace and love

Israel is a bit harder to protect in their actions, it's not entirely their fault though, the British gave them Canaan for their home.

Quote from: RaBiDcLoCk;1265274No, I'm just saying you think I haven't read any of it and you assume I'm going off of hearsay.

Maybe, but you can not judge a painting wholy without having seen it in its whole.

Quote from: RaBiDcLoCk;1265274Well I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but how can you not associate the horrors of what you see in an Islamic state with what the Qur'an preaches? I'll agree that the Old Testament teaches a lot of backwards things, but governments aren't run by it, and it's not nearly to the degree of the Qur'an. Even if it was to the same degree it wouldn't make it any more right.

But governments HAVE been run by it, for over a millenia. If you wish to count the horrors done by the koran contra the ones done by christianity during 1000-2000 you will find that christianity has done so much more. Islam was the first religion to allow multiple beliefs amongst its population, whilst the spanish inquisition was burning people left and right.

Quote from: RaBiDcLoCk;1265274I've actually made several Iraq and Afghani friends in my time out here and while I respect their choice in religion, I believe that Islam is one of the most hate filled religions around.

You may think so, and if you not seen any disproof why would you not?
Although I suggest you weigh other religions in their whole before you judge Islam. Do not forget that Israel as an exampel, solo exists because the jewish community proclaim the land is theirs by gods right.
Now that is the people reading it by the book, breaking the FN humanitary rights on over 67 different occations.
There are many cases of religious hatred in modern day times, the serbien (christian) manslaughter of kosovo albans (muslims) etc.

In the end, if you go by the way you say, the german people had no other choice than to obey during world war 2 because all the media/books told them to hate.
Ofcourse it effects people, but in the very end... it comes down to every human beings conscience and their very flawed human judgement.

Quote from: PropagandaClock;1265292Maybe, but you can not judge a painting wholy without having seen it in its whole.

But governments HAVE been run by it, for over a millenia. If you wish to count the horrors done by the koran contra the ones done by christianity during 1000-2000 you will find that christianity has done so much more. Islam was the first religion to allow multiple beliefs amongst its population, whilst the spanish inquisition was burning people left and right.

For someone who praises Buddhism as the only good religion you do it a great injustice to not name its tolerance of all different ideals as foremost amongst all religions.

Hindi might go even farther back, seeing as there's evidence of mosques, churches, and synagogues along with Hindi temples in India.

Quote from: PropagandaClock;1265292Maybe, but you can not judge a painting wholy without having seen it in its whole.

But governments HAVE been run by it, for over a millenia. If you wish to count the horrors done by the koran contra the ones done by christianity during 1000-2000 you will find that christianity has done so much more. Islam was the first religion to allow multiple beliefs amongst its population, whilst the spanish inquisition was burning people left and right.


You may think so, and if you not seen any disproof why would you not?
Although I suggest you weigh other religions in their whole before you judge Islam. Do not forget that Israel as an exampel, solo exists because the jewish community proclaim the land is theirs by gods right.
Now that is the people reading it by the book, breaking the FN humanitary rights on over 67 different occations.
There are many cases of religious hatred in modern day times, the serbien (christian) manslaughter of kosovo albans (muslims) etc.

In the end, if you go by the way you say, the german people had no other choice than to obey during world war 2 because all the media/books told them to hate.
Ofcourse it effects people, but in the very end... it comes down to every human beings conscience and their very flawed human judgement.

But in cases of Christianity the New Testament does not say to kill the non believers, it's the people taking the meaning and twisting it. I'll admit a few verses I've quoted from the Qur'an may have been a little misinterpreted, but it most certainly says to kill non believers. And in the case of Israel the Allied countries pretty much just gave it to them and that's a whole other subject to cover.

You're circling around the point I'm trying to make that the Qur'an is a book of violence. Nothing about Christianity, not the Muslim people, the written scripture of the Qur'an.


EDIT: This is a good place to find some pieces of the Qur'an translated into English http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm, although it is in a more negative light. It does show some "good" passages though.

With this thread as proof, I believe all religious debates should be banned from Plato's playground.  Why, you ask?

Because you're all arguing over something you know nothing about.  Why does religion exist?  So that man doesn't have to cope with the fear of the unknown.  So that people can have faith in the "fact" that you go to heaven or hell when you die.  To "prove" that there's an ultimate being.

You know what?  Nobody really knows shit.  You don't know anything about what happens when you die, no matter how many times you go to church or read the bible (or Quran, for that matter).    The so-called evidence is not sufficient.  

Different mens' ways of pathetically grasping for purpose does not make for good debating.   It makes for a clusterfuck of stupidity, especially when confused children like MarlinClock start trying to get in on it.  

Lock the fucking thread already.

Quote from: BrainChild;1265323Lock the fucking thread already.

Hey, there's an idea.

First:

Quote from: BrainChild;1265104You're a Catholic faggot who's never had an orgasm in his life.  You sometimes fantasize about having sex with your mother because you're so sexually depraved.

hahahah oh my god monster kill

i've never seen someone who seemed so passive before kick their trolling mechanism into such a high gear instantaneously

Second:

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1265155That chart is a lie.

lol

Quote from: RaBiDcLoCk;1265157I have my doubts about it too, since China is a communist nation and not an active member in the UN or NATO, they're not required to show their spendings.

I don't disagree with your assertion that China probably understates its military spending, but saying they're not an active member in the UN - they're a permanent member of the security council - is ridiculous.  Also, have you seen the Bush administration's budget numbers?  I think people grossly underestimate the level of American spending going towards the military.

Third:

This entire thread just seriously made my brain hurt.  From the original post to every single reply save a select few, I haven't come across a coherent argument worth reading.  Not a single one.  All I've read are a bunch of children swearing, bickering, calling each other names, pulling things out of their asses, etc.  Guess what, guys?  Compartmentalizing things and interpreting them as stringently as possible just to prove your point isn't forming an argument!  Arguments involve things like facts and logic and all that cool stuff.

If I sound condescending here, it's because I'm trying to.  I never post in this hellhole, but damned if I don't read it, and I haven't read a thread that makes me feel as embarrassed for the users I have to moderate in years.  I'm not going to gas or close this thread, or even chill or ban anyone (even though I probably could/should) since I'd have to hit everyone that posted in the thread for trolling, but I am going to lay some ground rules for the rest of this:

- No childish personal attacks anymore.
- No swearing, even if you're one of those "adjective/enhancer" proponents.
- Use facts to support a coherent argument, please.  You guys have been pulling charts and quotes out, but you're not exactly using them to further any kind of argument.  You're using them more just to flaunt them in someone's face and go "nyah, told u so u fuckin noob"
- Keep your mind open!  If someone disagrees with you, don't call them a moron or an idiot.  Engage in friendly debate instead.  That's the whole point of the forum, after all.
- Don't troll trolls (i.e. - don't troll back)
- For Christ's sake, keep it civil.  I can't stress this enough.

I feel like I just got my ass chewed by my mother.

Quote from: RaBiDcLoCk;1265357I feel like I just got my ass chewed by my mother.

Thats how good moderating is supposed to feel :3

The Sufis are great, the rest are a bit misguided.

Quote from: BrainChild;1265104You're a Catholic faggot who's never had an orgasm in his life.  You sometimes fantasize about having sex with your mother because you're so sexually depraved.

hahaha, holy shit

I don't know if it was deleted or I just forgot to actually hit the post button, but I said that old Jewish law has some fucked up shit that was a necessary evil or at least acceptable by the standards of the time, and if we followed any of the holy books containing it perfectly literally we would have an equally violent and savage culture, further supporting that it's all al-Ghazali's fault and it further stresses the need to think for one's self when reading a religious text. I don't think one has to follow the teachings of a religion precisely to be called a follower of it. If you believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, who exists, no matter what you believe that in some inalienable way makes you a Christian. Even many serious, Satan-worshipping Satanists are kind of Christians, even if they worship a different figure.

Quote from: Marlix Wright;1265169I dare ya, take any part of the gospel and try to do that.

Isaiah 11:12  
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.


Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.  
 
Do I win yet? I think it said that Earth is flat. Not that I care about anything in this thread
 



(User was banned for this post; Reason: acting like a moron in debate; not reading thread)