Zeitgeist - The Movie

[RevolutionaryClock]

The Amero is a concept. If it becomes the dominant currency of (almost) every country in the Americas, it essentially IS the Amero.

Except 'Amero' sounds like some queer European club.

[RomanClock]

Except 'Amero' sounds like some queer European club.

It also sounds like Peso, which is what I first thought of when he said Amero
$$$>peso

[Ti-83Clock]

If people starve on the streets its because they want to. The only reason I can think of is that the city is so bad it doesn't have a soup kitchen or that some people don't want help. I don't know where you are hearing this from :\

1. "We" did not drive them out
2. Did I say poverty is good? I think not.
3. There are people who don't want to get help, believe it or not.
4. Where are these people that are starving?

We drove them out by being all upper classy, and having things more convenient, this however we did unconsciously, because they are "the hidden poor"
2. poverty isnt good i agree
3. also true, because they have pride
4. today i gave this guy 3 or 4 dollars in the subway. first homeless guy i've interacted with. he called me kind and it felt great.  the starving people are hidden, hiding their shame.  the guy i saw sucked up his pride and was begging for money.  how much do you have to push for someone to let go of their pride and actually beg?  most of these homeless are hidden.  hidden away in other parts of the city, so that the major population will not see them.

Every big city has soup kitchens, which is where I see the biggest concentration of bums, and even then, all they need to do is take a few garbage cans or something and do some act that garners giving charity.
If they make it out to look all disheveled and ask for money they might not get it as easy as someone who actually tries to get money through work, seeing as they can get the basic necessities in specified areas of the city.

Mostly I believe those who don't try don't because of the reasons people fear giving money to the homeless.

im surprised at you marlin
tsk tsk tsk

(and lol this thread is now in my realm of homeless people, ill bring an argument tomorrow, going to bed)

[RomanClock]

We drove them out by being all upper classy, and having things more convenient, this however we did unconsciously, because they are "the hidden poor"
4. today i gave this guy 3 or 4 dollars in the subway. first homeless guy i've interacted with. he called me kind and it felt great.  the starving people are hidden, hiding their shame.  the guy i saw sucked up his pride and was begging for money.  how much do you have to push for someone to let go of their pride and actually beg?  most of these homeless are hidden.  hidden away in other parts of the city, so that the major population will not see them.

Yes, because there is upper class and then the invisible poor. Actually, no, there is a whole wide range of "classes" of which I believe you can fall or rise through depending on your choices (only in America) If anything, we are helping people by buying a product because a good business man would reinvest and create more jobs (this is not always true though)
That was not a good thing to do because now you just encouraged him and others to continue begging there. I'd rather not have people annoying me for money everywhere I go because thats what happens when you give to a random guy. You should have given it to a charity.
Also, not everyone has pride or shame, which is why people stoop to low levels and do horrible things. A beggar could actually be a middle class guy trying to get some extra money when he wants something, that doesn't mean that all beggars are well off, just that once again, giving money to the guy on the road doesn't help them.

[RevolutionaryClock]

Also, not everyone has pride or shame, which is why people stoop to low levels and do horrible things. A beggar could actually be a middle class guy trying to get some extra money

If someone spends hours on the streets asking for pocket change, they probably aren't gonna stay middle class for very long. =P

[RomanClock]

If someone spends hours on the streets asking for pocket change, they probably aren't gonna stay middle class for very long. =P

You don't have to sit down to beg. You could just be walking somewhere, spot someone who you think has money, and ask for some while pretending to be poor.

[Ti-83Clock]

Yes, because there is upper class and then the invisible poor. Actually, no, there is a whole wide range of "classes" of which I believe you can fall or rise through depending on your choices (only in America) If anything, we are helping people by buying a product because a good business man would reinvest and create more jobs (this is not always true though)
That was not a good thing to do because now you just encouraged him and others to continue begging there. I'd rather not have people annoying me for money everywhere I go because thats what happens when you give to a random guy. You should have given it to a charity.
Also, not everyone has pride or shame, which is why people stoop to low levels and do horrible things. A beggar could actually be a middle class guy trying to get some extra money when he wants something, that doesn't mean that all beggars are well off, just that once again, giving money to the guy on the road doesn't help them.

imagine a guy, he's not very bright who works at a factory.  you know where this is going.  guy gets fired, family starves.  Is it really his fault that 1. he didnt have the opportunities of a good education as a child, lets say because his parents were good for nothings, or w.e., and 2. that he was fired from the only thing he is good at.  This guy has a wife and 2 kids.  Since they havent had enough money the wife is ill and unable to work, the kids are going to school because the guy believes they should better themselves and get out of poverty.  Anyways, pretty soon they wont have a house since the father was fired.  The wife will eventually die.  The kids wont be able to go to school since they dont have an address.  Guy then goes does the food stamp things, and finds out that he has to wait a few months to actually get the food stamps.  What to do in the mean time? Also guy tries to go to a shelter an soup kitchens for the children.  Fine and dandy you may say.  Kids have a roof and they get to eat, but is it an adequate place for a child?  Eventually, if the guy is brave enough, he would have to put the children up for adoption.  Family split apart.  Nowhere to go, and only a soup kitchen to feed him.  What a life eh? All because the upper classes wanted a bit more money and had to fire him.

Now the beggars...
why is he begging? the real question is what else is there to do? Most of the homeless actually do go out to go look for a job at the agencies, but they are denied.  
"As many as 3.5 million people experience homelessness in a given year (1% of the entire U.S. population or 10% of its poor), and about 842,000 people in any given week" -wiki
They are all looking for jobs, its common sense.  I highly doubt that there are 3.5 million jobs to give away.  Now you may say that there are those no good dirty crooks who are lazy good for nothings.  That just close mindedness.  The only person i somewhat trust in this subject is absinthe since he has experienced it.  however i dont agree that they shouldnt be given help.  Panhandlers are still human beings, and they are reaching out to you.  By sparing a few dollars you're making the guy's day.  Maybe they have a drug addiction, but maybe they dont.  Help your fellow human being.  By sparing a few dollars its a more direct approach than by giving it to charity (which i am in no way disapproving of here).  

Finally, roman, what the fuck? you really thing a large majority of middle class people dress up in hobo suits while going to work just so they can earn a few bucks?

(thread is soooo derailed)

[RomanClock]

I didn't want to take the time to explain everything to you about whats wrong with your post but here are some highlights:
Education is free
You don't starve if you don't have a job
You should probably move anyway if you can find another job in a year
Give to charity
Give to charity
Don't give to the guy on the street
Also, thanks for exaggerating my points, but thats expected during a debate.

[Ti-83Clock]

I didn't want to take the time to explain everything to you about whats wrong with your post but here are some highlights:
Education is free
You don't starve if you don't have a job
You should probably move anyway if you can find another job in a year
Give to charity
Give to charity
Don't give to the guy on the street
Also, thanks for exaggerating my points, but thats expected during a debate.

-public education is horrible, but my point is that if they dont have an address, they cant go to school
-true that you dont starve, but your life is shit.  if you have kids, would you seriously want to expose them to a soup kitchen? it would be one of the last things to do, but yeah some have to.  Anyways, yeah ok you dont starve, but you're still homeless and unemployed.
-yeah sure
-i never said to not give to charity, charity is ok.  Giving it to someone who is in need and seeing the look in their eyes is much better though.
-it was just like 3 dollars.  it will help him more than it will help me. shut up with your gospel of wealth.
-lol sry to exaggerate, but i thought you were being serious

[RomanClock]

-public education is horrible, but my point is that if they dont have an address, they cant go to school
-true that you dont starve, but your life is shit.  if you have kids, would you seriously want to expose them to a soup kitchen? it would be one of the last things to do, but yeah some have to.  Anyways, yeah ok you dont starve, but you're still homeless and unemployed.
-yeah sure
-i never said to not give to charity, charity is ok.  Giving it to someone who is in need and seeing the look in their eyes is much better though.
-it was just like 3 dollars.  it will help him more than it will help me. shut up with your gospel of wealth.
-lol sry to exaggerate, but i thought you were being serious

I've never heard of this requirement to go to school, can you site a source?
Have you heard of welfare? The largest percent of your taxes are going to.
OH MAN THEIR EYES ARE SO MAGICAL
You can give your money to whoever you want, I'm just saying that its not really helping.

[Loki Clock]

Roman, you seem to be arguing the, "he'll just spend it on beer, anyway," side.

[RomanClock]

Roman, you seem to be arguing the, "he'll just spend it on beer, anyway," side.

No, I'm going with the "it encourages himself and others to continue begging" side

[Loki Clock]

No, I'm going with the "it encourages himself and others to continue begging" side

Pshht! Fuck houses! I can just BEG all day and let my survival revolve around the whim and charity of those around me!

[Ti-83Clock]

I've never heard of this requirement to go to school, can you site a source?
Have you heard of welfare? The largest percent of your taxes are going to.
OH MAN THEIR EYES ARE SO MAGICAL
You can give your money to whoever you want, I'm just saying that its not really helping.

-ill look into it for a better source, but i think you have to state an address and proof of residence to go to a school. this is why you cant switch local public schools and why you have to stay in your area.  if you dont have an area, they wont know if you're going to the "right" school.
-the largest percent of taxes are going to the war
-k, i feel like im helping, but w.e.

No, I'm going with the "it encourages himself and others to continue begging" side

The Gospel of Wealth side
Im arguing, or trying to argue, the help your fellow man rise along with you side (aka Christian view lol)

[RomanClock]

-ill look into it for a better source, but i think you have to state an address and proof of residence to go to a school. this is why you cant switch local public schools and why you have to stay in your area.  if you dont have an area, they wont know if you're going to the "right" school.
-the largest percent of taxes are going to the war
-k, i feel like im helping, but w.e.



The Gospel of Wealth side
Im arguing, or trying to argue, the help your fellow man rise along with you side (aka Christian view lol)

You don't even know what you are talking about. You're just spewing back out whatever you heard on the TV. Social security costs WAY MORE than the Iraq war so don't even give me those lies.
And do you even know what the Gospel of Wealth is??? It says that the poor are poor because they don't deserve money and the rich are rich because they deserve it. Thats definitely not what I'm saying.
And no, thats not called "rising along your fellow man" its called being I'm a edgy teen. If you kept giving every guy that asked you for a few bucks some money, ITS NOT HELPING ANYONE.

[Ti-83Clock]

You don't even know what you are talking about. You're just spewing back out whatever you heard on the TV. Social security costs WAY MORE than the Iraq war so don't even give me those lies.
And do you even know what the Gospel of Wealth is??? It says that the poor are poor because they don't deserve money and the rich are rich because they deserve it. Thats definitely not what I'm saying.
And no, thats not called "rising along your fellow man" its called being I'm a edgy teen. If you kept giving every guy that asked you for a few bucks some money, ITS NOT HELPING ANYONE.

(looking for a source about the tax thing)(should i look for the school source, cause that might be harder to come by.  however, are you satisfied with the logical explanation?)
edit: this seems valid http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm, ill look for more proffesional looking one later
edit: ah here we go this is the site i was looking for http://costofwar.com/

no thats social darwinism, which does have influence on the gospel of wealth.  Gospel of wealth is the rich helping the poor, not by giving them money, but by educating them.  It says that you shouldnt give people money, but rather let rise up by themselves.

its helping the guy...

[RomanClock]

edit: this seems valid http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm, ill look for more proffesional looking one later
edit: ah here we go this is the site i was looking for http://costofwar.com/

no thats social darwinism, which does have influence on the gospel of wealth.  Gospel of wealth is the rich helping the poor, not by giving them money, but by educating them.  It says that you shouldnt give people money, but rather let rise up by themselves.

its helping the guy...

Aha, I knew you would come up with those, but those are totally wrong! What a surprise since they are coming from bias anti-war organizations!
Just like to point out though: Social Security costs TRILLIONS so even these inflated numbers can't touch it.
http://www.socialsecurity.org/reformandyou/faqs.html

Heres something to put this in perspective:
There are only 100,000 or so troops in Iraq over 6 years
There are over 3,000,000 (1%) people on social security that will be on for decades

Also WRONG AGAIN WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG got it???
Social Darwinism - Rich people are the dominant group of people because they are better than everyone else, through natural selection and that they adapted to the market environment.
Gospel of Wealth - Rich people have money because they can distribute it better than poor people because they wouldn't know how to handle the money.
Individualism - Getting up on your own feet with your own means

bye bye

[AlbinoClock]

I'm sorry Roman, but I've been homeless, I've panhandled. Services for the homeless are insufficient, and you are helping, far more, when you give money directly to the individual.

It's 3am and cold as hell, this guy's just spent an hour sleeping in dunkin donuts, and now they're going to kick him out onto the street if he doesn't buy something. Luckily, he saved a couple of dollars from earlier in the day, and he can buy a coffee. Now that he's a customer, he gets to stay, thus saving him from a shitty night, or perhaps a frozen corpse.

Giving a bum a bit of money isn't going to make him get on his feet and make his life better, but it will make his day better, and life consists of a bunch of days. Perhaps if enough of those days go right for him, he can give up his frustration and shame long enough to drag himself out.

[RomanClock]

I'm sorry Roman, but I've been homeless, I've panhandled. Services for the homeless are insufficient, and you are helping, far more, when you give money directly to the individual.

It's 3am and cold as hell, this guy's just spent an hour sleeping in dunkin donuts, and now they're going to kick him out onto the street if he doesn't buy something. Luckily, he saved a couple of dollars from earlier in the day, and he can buy a coffee. Now that he's a customer, he gets to stay, thus saving him from a shitty night, or perhaps a frozen corpse.

Giving a bum a bit of money isn't going to make him get on his feet and make his life better, but it will make his day better, and life consists of a bunch of days. Perhaps if enough of those days go right for him, he can give up his frustration and shame long enough to drag himself out.

This doesn't nullify any of my points :\
You're just explaining the benefit of giving directly. Giving your money away is a personal choice, and you feel that giving directly is better,so you do that. I just don't believe it actually helps them and there is our difference.

[RevolutionaryClock]

don't believe it actually helps them and there is our difference.

He just explained that it does help them. You're falling back on the 'well that's just my personal belief' defense since you can't come up with any real response to his assertions. Lame.