Wikileaks leaked 2007 Iraq War footage

[OpalClock]

It's a war! Everything's ok because it's a war! Morality, you say? Compassion? Fie on compassion! It's a war! It's perfectly acceptable to throw away every shred of human decency because it's a war! I was really worried there for a second, but you sure cleared things up. TROLL.

 

War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles, fought by mercenaries and machines. War, and its consumption of life, has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID tagged soldiers carry ID tagged weapons, use ID tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefield control. Everything is monitored, and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control. All in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield, controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control, war...becomes routine.

But seriously, from an american standpoint, we are kept in the dark as much as anyone. No one really has the drive to break out of the norm and waste time researching war crimes etc.

Durr it's wrong, but nobody cares.

[WrenchClock]

Every time i see an OpalClock post my day gets slightly shittier.

[RabidClock]

If soldiers are so afraid of losing their lives that they will shoot people for looking like they might be hostile, then they shouldn't be the ones holding the guns. They should take desk jobs or maybe not join the military at all.

In war people that look hostile are generally hostile. When you think someone has a gun and a cell phone they're probably coordinating an attack.

Every civilian we kill extends the conflict, makes the war worse, breeds more hatred and gives more of a claim to justification to our enemies.

And what's more, it's killing an innocent person for something trivial. Isn't that kind of what we go to war to keep from happening in the first place? Then the last thing in the WORLD that we should be doing is the exact thing we go over there to KEEP from happening.

That is what happens in war, which is why war sucks.

And I'm aware that I'm not a soldier, and there's a reason for that. But I am a student of history, and that "it's war" excuse has been used for so long it's amazing no one's learned the lesson yet.

It's not an excuse, it's a reality. War is not logical or kind, and should only be used as a last resort. I disagree with the war in Iraq, preemptive strikes rarely work, and preemptive strikes on nations never work.

[peyoteclock]

not the first time air support has fucked up when these conflicts were starting americans attacked a squad of canadians in afghanistan killing two or three of us, maybe more, i don't even think that made the news in the states.

[peyoteclock]

yeah the fuckin idiots dropped a laser guided missile on our boys like jesus fucking christ.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/

[Topcatyo]

yeah the fuckin idiots dropped a laser guided missile on our boys like jesus fucking christ.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/

Nah, it was in the news for about a week or two.  Not as much as it should have been, though, but it got covered.

[CrustClock]

How dare they kill people in a war!

Don't worry, they're not people.

[RabidClock]

And if they're not, and you shoot them, then you've just taken an innocent life.

The Barbara Bush defense. Summing it up with "yeah war's shitty but what you gonna do?" isn't an answer for why not to do the right thing.

Pretending there is no choice in the matter when there is is an excuse. The alternative is to take the additional risk to yourself and the men who volunteered to take such a risk in order to not face the odds of slaughtering innocents who have no say in what risks they are subjected to for simply being born in the wrong part of the world.

Did you only read half of what I wrote? Saying war sucks is like saying shit stinks. I'm not defending war, I'm just saying it sucks. Innocent people will die in war regardless of what you do. Bad guys and innocents look exactly the same, it's just the way it is. I don't think those reporters should have died because we should have never have been in Iraq, but there it is anyways.

EDIT: Nevermind, I don't know why I'm trying to explain this, you're a troll.

[RabidClock]

I still blame Rabid

me too

Corpse, you're trying to make war into something it isn't. In a perfect world I'm sure we could make an omelet without breaking eggs, but here in the real world, you have to. In war people die, good, bad or otherwise. Those pilots engaged with probable cause because cameras on slings look just like guns on slings. They requested permission and used their best judgment, they were technically correct. Seriously, we've come so far with minimizing collateral damage in war it's not even funny. Before we would just wipe out entire sections of cities with bombing runs, now we keep it down to a single building or even a single room out of a building.

[camoclock is a great man]

Full report has been leaked as well: http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Death%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists/6--2nd%20Brigade%20Combat%20Team%2015-6%20Investigation.pdf

[buttplug]

I never quite understood how people in Iraq are fighting for my freedom if Iraq never threatened my freedom in the first place :S

Money Money Money Money

It is disgusting, isn't it?

Kind of makes you want to line up some senators and pop em.

We're the bad guys in this war, in years to come they'll be Iraqi war movies showing how we oppressed the middle east.
Oh wait, America's still depicted as heroes of the Vietnam war. Nevermind.

Don't be stupid, try finding anyone under 60 who thought Vietnam was a good idea.

[RabidClock]

Reading the after actions report since the team that came across the bodies did come across RPG rounds and AK47 rifles. They might not have been as innocent as everybody thinks, and if they were, then they were very stupid to be near an approaching unit with those RPGs.

Corpse, I never said it was right for innocent people to die, I just think it's stupid to expect anything less in a war. Of course things could be improved, but at this time we don't have that capability. You have to admit we are improving civilian casualties from military engagements drastically compared to what it was 50 years ago. Things will continue to improve, but we have to be realistic.

[RabidClock]

In my opinion, war is the most childish thing the adult population of the world engages in. If not, then it's in the top 3.

I absolutely agree Golden, war is a terrible thing that not only affects innocents, but the ones forced to fight in them too.

[RabidClock]

I have never personally seen combat, of course, only seeing from the media and from recently reading All Quiet on the Western Front. That is bad enough for me as it is, so I couldn't imagine witnessing and engaging in it firsthand. I'm particularly glad I was encouraged never to go into the military.

Nothing wrong with not seeing combat, I wish nobody ever had to see it. The military primarily preys on poor kids that can't afford college. That's how they got me, promised me glory and college and instead got a war (I joined up before 9/11 and got out in 2007).

[RabidClock]

Step 1: put in place a policy forbidding opening fire on individuals who are not clearly hostile, and having dire consequences for individuals responsible for making calls that cause the deaths of innocent people.

Yeah, and I'm assuming that this thread is about this thread, so in this case they did show evidence of hostility, and indeed they found weapons among the casualties. So they did Step 1. You can't simply fire on a target without going through a checklist. You can't shoot someone for having an AK 47, but you can shoot at someone with an AK 47 acting suspicious when a combat unit is approaching, and aiming a device at them.

[Marlin Clock]

Trust me, it would have been much bigger if we went up and invaded Japan instead of bombing it. So many people were willing to fight to the death.

[Poltergeist]

It's a war! Everything's ok because it's a war! Morality, you say? Compassion? Fie on compassion! It's a war! It's perfectly acceptable to throw away every shred of human decency because it's a war! I was really worried there for a second, but you sure cleared things up.

When it comes to debating humanity, I'll be the last guy arguing for altruism and utilitarianism, but I have to say that in war it's not so much morality as psychology. In a setting like this, where you're given lots of power with little direction, a mob rule takes over, and *mentally, anyhow) a diffusion of responsibility occurs (especially in large groups). I studied deindividualisation last year, and if I got one thing out of it it was that fear and confusion outweigh logic and compassion.

And it would have been much smaller if we went with a war of attrition considering at the end of the war we had total and complete air superiority and instead just basically kept them from building any factories, especially considering at the end we had close access through mainland China and the Soviet Union giving support from their military.

Like with Viet Nam?

Additionally, our perception of war at the time was entirely different, and the military generals in Japan (to my understanding) were completely and utterly willing to continue the fight, even if it meant certaindefeat. In fact it was one of the only times in Japanese history the emperor had to force them to stop fighting, even after the bombs were dropped.

[patriotclock]

I have never personally seen combat, of course, only seeing from the media and from recently reading All Quiet on the Western Front

Furthermore, I can't stand it when war is glorified and made into something to be wonderful.

Its like the book is posting on the forum!!!

[Odo]

Much worse things have happened as a direct result of american ignorance.

[Odo]

Greater ignorance somewhere doesn't excuse lesser ignorance elsewhere.

I'm not big on shedding crocodile tears, personally. For them it's kill or be killed, in the same circumstances you and I probably would've made the same call.